Kiwi's Blue Spruce

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Thanks for the response. If I wire over them will they more naturally fall off? I’m my vision of my tree I would like to reduce those inner needles and expose the limb is that thought process going to hurt the tree?
 

sorce

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I dont think a thought process can hurt a tree!
;)

Contrary...the more thinking the better!

I got a link to my rant on it back in this thread.

In my world.

There's way more to removing needles than removing needles.

.........

If aesthetics is a non issue at your trees stage, I would wire trying to avoid needles, only trimming those necessary as you go...
Or trimming them out after you wire.

Every needle helps the branch set.

I still think it is equally important to prune to 2's, proper nexts, good forks, before wiring.

It is with that energy gone, that every remaining needles counts.

Pics!

Sorce
 
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My thought is to start to wire the more mature branches right about in the middle of the tree. Wire them in a downward direction. I’m leave the very top part alone for now but hopefully have the same idea for the top when it’s ready to be worked.
 

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sorce

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My thought is to start to wire the more mature branches right about in the middle of the tree. Wire them in a downward direction. I’m leave the very top part alone for now but hopefully have the same idea for the top when it’s ready to be worked.

It's ready iffin you fittin to keep it.

These are quite apically dominant..

You want to go Harder on the vigorous apex.

Surly not leave it be.


Sorce
 
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It's ready iffin you fittin to keep it.

These are quite apically dominant..

You want to go Harder on the vigorous apex.

Surly not leave it be.


Sorce
I’m thinking about removing all the lower limbs but one to help thicken the trunk. So your saying go for it and get to wiring even the top of the tree?
 

sorce

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The trunk seems a little small to hold a canopy of BS foliage....

The worst thing you can do is put a mega halter to trunk growth if it is not thick enough to support the size foliage.
Cuz before mega halters it takes say 3 years to get to trunk size, but after, it takes 7-10. At which point....Start over!

With that in mind....
(Feel free to share more pics)

I would approach it one of three ways, or all three of the ways, Cuz you can leave options and try different things to the same tree at once.

I guess option A would be to wire lower branches, and leave the apex be, allowing it to run as your trunk thickening sacrifice, but then a jin apex is almost required in the future and I don't care for that.

Option B would be wiring it all the way out and forming a "tree" and seeing what happens, grow it slow game or keep an eye for other options. Since this doesn't really allow us any sacrificial trunk thickening.

Option C, which I like to combine with anything all the time....
Leave a choption down low. A chop to option.
A start over branch.
A ...if this fails, I got an out branch.
A plan B branch.

That way if you get crazy bitchin growth, you can go back to a supremely tapered option and keep growing.

Whatever you do, torture it!

This is the time when they are young and vigorous to give them those breaks and quirks that will age into perfection.

Just keep your Future Vision Goggles on and only be commited to excellence, never a design!

Sorce
 
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The trunk seems a little small to hold a canopy of BS foliage....

The worst thing you can do is put a mega halter to trunk growth if it is not thick enough to support the size foliage.
Cuz before mega halters it takes say 3 years to get to trunk size, but after, it takes 7-10. At which point....Start over!

With that in mind....
(Feel free to share more pics)

I would approach it one of three ways, or all three of the ways, Cuz you can leave options and try different things to the same tree at once.

I guess option A would be to wire lower branches, and leave the apex be, allowing it to run as your trunk thickening sacrifice, but then a jin apex is almost required in the future and I don't care for that.

Option B would be wiring it all the way out and forming a "tree" and seeing what happens, grow it slow game or keep an eye for other options. Since this doesn't really allow us any sacrificial trunk thickening.

Option C, which I like to combine with anything all the time....
Leave a choption down low. A chop to option.
A start over branch.
A ...if this fails, I got an out branch.
A plan B branch.

That way if you get crazy bitchin growth, you can go back to a supremely tapered option and keep growing.

Whatever you do, torture it!

This is the time when they are young and vigorous to give them those breaks and quirks that will age into perfection.

Just keep your Future Vision Goggles on and only be commited to excellence, never a design!

Sorce
Awesome thanks for the response. I think I will go with option B and C. I think having a backup plan is definitely a good way to approach it. I will keep you posted with pictures.
 
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Awesome thanks for the response. I think I will go with option B and C. I think having a backup plan is definitely a good way to approach it. I will keep you posted with pictures.

So I’m hoping it will survive. I guess time will tell. I left the top for now I see some potential in the upper limbs and I was really afraid to over work it. I also left some limbs in the Middle for a chop. I really whish the trunk had more movement. But if I can keep it alive and keep it healthy will I be able to remove those inner needles to expose more of the limb?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@KiwiPlantGuy
Welcome to BNut. So it is spring in NZ, a good time to repot, up until the buds start expanding, then the period of rapid spring growth is a bad time to repot. Most of NZ is a mild climate compared to Colorado, where blue spruce are quite common above 2700 meters, about 9000 feet. Up there, winter temperatures can approach -32 C, roughly -25F. Your relatively mild climate means there is a second season where repotting is possible, because your winter is fairly mild. Anytime after new growth has slowed, and hardened off, usually in late summer thru to early autumn you can repot if necessary.

If your trees mine, I would follow more or less the go slow approach @M. Frary recommended. I have found spruces to resent being rushed after root work. I have a blue spruce that was horribly root bound old nursery stock. I did major root work, which involved removing only 50% of roots, but I had to bend many roots to get them to fit in the 15cm x 45cm x 45cm deep training box I put it in. It has taken 2 full growing seasons for it to show vigorous growth. So after major root work, do not do any further pruning or aggressive styling until the summer after the tree shows multiple buds growing on all branches. If it isn't healthy, pruning, bud pinching and other work can tip it over the edge into terminal decline. So just pump it up with sun, water and fertilizer until every branch tip has "blue shiners" bright healthy new growth.

Once you have the signs of vigor, you can be very aggressive styling the tree.
 
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So I got to your post after my work. I feel like I did not go slow. But I hope I can get these limbs in place. The nursery pot the tree is in currently I feel has more for it to grow. I feel the tree is healthy. So hopefully it will be ok with the work. I tried to leave as many needles on each limb. Let me know if I need to remove some wire might be able to go the slower way?
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi all,
So I have constructed some boxes for these Blue Spruces. Boxes are all different because I couldn't use a tape measure very well lol me :-(
Anyway, boxes measure 35cm x 30cm x 15cm deep. Or close to that. Sorry only picture taken was after event of potting/boxing the trees.
So after I took the trees out of their planter bags ( original post), I found virtually no soil but good news was that there was plenty of FEEDER roots, so I am happy with result to repot etc. I didn't cut any roots as when they were dug by my workmates they did the job for me then.

So my question may have been answered by @Leo in N E Illinois BUT hey I will ask it anyway.
These trees have been root cut while they were dug, but their tops were not pruned. DO I PRUNE THEIR TOP GROWTH to balance their lack of roots to support this amount of top growth?
Or do I leave it alone for this next season, and let the needles be the photosynthesis thing ??
Charles
 

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Leo in N E Illinois

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Hi all,
So I have constructed some boxes for these Blue Spruces. Boxes are all different because I couldn't use a tape measure very well lol me :-(
Anyway, boxes measure 35cm x 30cm x 15cm deep. Or close to that. Sorry only picture taken was after event of potting/boxing the trees.
So after I took the trees out of their planter bags ( original post), I found virtually no soil but good news was that there was plenty of FEEDER roots, so I am happy with result to repot etc. I didn't cut any roots as when they were dug by my workmates they did the job for me then.

So my question may have been answered by @Leo in N E Illinois BUT hey I will ask it anyway.
These trees have been root cut while they were dug, but their tops were not pruned. DO I PRUNE THEIR TOP GROWTH to balance their lack of roots to support this amount of top growth?
Or do I leave it alone for this next season, and let the needles be the photosynthesis thing ??
Charles

The "correct" answer for whether to trim the top back to "balance" the top to the remaining roots has not been worked out definitely. I am of the opinion to leave the top alone. I used to be in the trim camp, but have had a few Japan trained and experienced yamadori collectors tell me no, leave the top alone. The roots will catch up. So far, even when it seems very out of balance, not doing the top prune for balance has worked out better. But I don't do enough bonsai for my experience to be other than personal anecdote.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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So I got to your post after my work. I feel like I did not go slow. But I hope I can get these limbs in place. The nursery pot the tree is in currently I feel has more for it to grow. I feel the tree is healthy. So hopefully it will be ok with the work. I tried to leave as many needles on each limb. Let me know if I need to remove some wire might be able to go the slower way?

Hello Joel.
If the roots have not been disturbed, you are likely fine. Don't "unwire". Wiring is not as "stressful" as major branch removal. The greatest trauma for a tree is repotting. Even what some call "slip potting" is, or often is far more traumatic for the tree than most people realize. Everything else is less harmful.

So I would continue to prune and wire to get the tree closer to your goal through to maybe beginning of August 2018. Then begin preparing the tree for repotting spring 2019 by letting it grow out a little, feed a little more, make sure it has buds at ends of all branches. Then you repot, and then give the tree as much time as needed, one, two, or more growing seasons to recover. Use the condition of the tree in front of you to guide what you do next.

Generally, try not to remove more than a third of foliage or roots at any given time. If you are confident and experienced with preparation care, and after care, you can get away with a lot more. But if you were that experienced, you would not have posted here. (Meant as good humorous dig).

I have killed hundreds of trees by doing too much too soon. Hardest thing for me to learn was to read the tree in front of me and go at it a slow as the tree's condition will allow.
 
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Hello Joel.
If the roots have not been disturbed, you are likely fine. Don't "unwire". Wiring is not as "stressful" as major branch removal. The greatest trauma for a tree is repotting. Even what some call "slip potting" is, or often is far more traumatic for the tree than most people realize. Everything else is less harmful.

So I would continue to prune and wire to get the tree closer to your goal through to maybe beginning of August 2018. Then begin preparing the tree for repotting spring 2019 by letting it grow out a little, feed a little more, make sure it has buds at ends of all branches. Then you repot, and then give the tree as much time as needed, one, two, or more growing seasons to recover. Use the condition of the tree in front of you to guide what you do next.

Generally, try not to remove more than a third of foliage or roots at any given time. If you are confident and experienced with preparation care, and after care, you can get away with a lot more. But if you were that experienced, you would not have posted here. (Meant as good humorous dig).

I have killed hundreds of trees by doing too much too soon. Hardest thing for me to learn was to read the tree in front of me and go at it a slow as the tree's condition will allow.
Hey thanks for the response. I really appreciate the knowledge share. I wired the tree yesterday and from some of the feedback from the others is to let it get a lot of sun and good watering. I have been into Bonsai for about four years now and I’m still working on my watering techniques but my trees I have been practicing on haven been with me for four years now. This would be my first juniper I have acquired and definitely wanted to ask some questions before I started.
 

my nellie

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... ...DO I PRUNE THEIR TOP GROWTH to balance their lack of roots to support this amount of top growth?
... ... I used to be in the trim camp, but have had a few Japan trained and experienced yamadori collectors tell me no, leave the top alone. The roots will catch up...
I used to be also in the trim camp until I have been told this absolutely rational justification : let the foliage alone (except perhaps some necessary shortening/thinning) the roots will support what they can support and discard the rest.
If you prune, you might remove a branch which would not be discarded normally by the tree itself.
 
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