Bonsai Fairy is Real !!!

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Been down this road before, but does not seem to click? So, thought I would post this up, seems relevant...

The Bonsai Fairy does exist! In fact, it could be you and you just haven't come to terms with it! Now, I know what you are thinking... not me? But, it is true!

What am I talking about? I am talking about the fact that for generations upon generations in places like Japan, China, Tiawan, etc. There have been Bonsai Fairies hard at work spending hours upon hours, years upon years working material, often crappy material, making it into the world class material you have come to know as good bonsai.

They have spent decades bending, twisting, carving, creating jins, sharis and uros. Working trunks to the point of the quality one sees, then moving on to branching, building taper, ramification, padding and foliage. Then their is the endless amount of root work and nebari sorting out.

All of this demands time, work... commitment? Yet, with all of this talk about "American Bonsai" as of lately, what I see is not much of this... I see and hear an attitude being passed down the line from those of Professionals to those who have been at the art for some time, to those just starting off... that the answer to obtaining world class trees is to just go out and get the best material possible. Right? I mean this was even reflected in the recent Artisans Cup... trees dragged down from the mountain side, with very little work being done, winning every award.

So, my question is... where does this leave "American Bonsai ", long term? So, now there is a push for folks to try and obtain these type of trees, and soon the "Gold Rush" will be on... and eventually, how ever I don't see it happening anytime soon, the natural resources will dry up and the Gold Rush will sizzle out, just as every Gold Rush before it has done... so what then?

And where does it leave the Bonsai Artist who does not have a backyard Utopia, or an endless wad of cash? How can they compete? I mean for the rest of us... which is the 99 percent of folks doing the Art, when folks like Walter Pall say we need to have paid Talent Scouts combing the world for the best material possible to work on, this is not an option... Right?

So, then why do we tell folks to go get the best possible material they can afford, spend endless amounts of cash, to try and compete in a system where their will always be someone with more cash? This is what I see wrong with American Bonsai.

We are praising folks and putting them on a pedestal, because of the material they have and not the work they have done. No, disrespect to folks like Ryan Neil, or any of those who won at the Artisans Cup... but, I would say it would be safe to say, that most here with any descent understanding of bonsai, if given a world class piece of material, might be able to pull off a pretty awesome tree.

Now, there will be folks who say this is not true... to which I would ask them to be honest with themselves and say, which of the material they have worked on has given them the best finished looking styling results from the get go? The awesome piece of material, or the crappy one they have had to work on over time to develop? I can answer for myself by saying the following... on every nice piece of material I have ever had the pleasure of working on, if I only wired and moved one branch I could post it up and would get praises of how great of a job I did!

But, did I really do a good job? And am I the all amazing artist, or is the piece of material that good? The problem, I see with the logic of obtaining really nice material to work on, or telling folks that they should, especially when starting off, is I don't see folks really learning what it takes to create a nice tree. Right? The material is already nice... so, there is a disconnect. There are not the Bonsai Fairies, spending years and years of on the job training.

Folks starting off, are not learning the grunt work. I see it all the time. I see folks going to shows winning awards for trees they have, yet the shari on the trunk they didn't create, and when push comes to shove one finds out they still don't know the basics of how to create one... someone did it for them at the last workshop they attended. Sad...

So, for me... the rose view of American Bonsai that everyone sees going forward is lacking in basic understandings and is a fatal flaw... we are not really learning what can be done with material. We are not really learning how one can push the material to it's limits... which is what is required of world class trees, because the work is already done. We are not doing the grunt work and being the Bonsai Fairies, in fact we are encouraging those newer or starting off not to do so.

When in all reality, if we were concerned about American Bonsai, we would be telling them the opposite. Right? Take a piece of crappy material, work it... shape it, carve, bend, twist, push the piece of material to it's limits, if the tree dies, start again... do this until you learn how to develop a piece of crap into something of quality, continue until it is the tree winning the awards... then one can then move onto spending tons of money on better material.

I say this from experience... I too had money, went out and spent this money on the better material, of which I didn't know the first thing of what to do with it, and shortly after, realized I was only fooling myself... I had not done the grunt work, I had not been the Bonsai Fairy. I was so concerned about having nice trees, yet in all actuality my trees were not nice. I did fool most though... especially those concerned about the quality of material... so this was nice, however, in most cases it was the work I did on them that was crappy, not the material. For anyone with any actual degree of Bonsai Artistic knowledge, this was so obviously apparent.

Think I am wrong? Check out the next time someone post a piece of nice material, how many likes or praises they get for the material, even though the tree is so far from being anything close to actually being considered a bonsai, and of any quality. Just eye candy... I have said this before, there is no shame in posting up pictures of a crappy piece of material with really good awesome work! In fact I would encourage one does so! And sadly is what I really see lacking in it's entirety here at the Nut... no one posting serious work, and their process of pushing the material. The actual nuts and bolts of doing bonsai. No grunt work, instead we have stupid posts of folks wanting dislike buttons...

On thing I have found funny through doing this grunt work, through me being the Bonsai Fairy... is that in all actuality the doors open up to one who has... folks with any degree of knowledge, understand that if you can polish a turd, and turn a piece of crappy material into a work of art, they want you working on their trees! They understand and see what you are able to do with very little... and understand you will be able to move mountains on good material as well. On the flip side the folks who have nice trees, but know very little knowledge want you working on their trees as well, seeing they never learned how to do what you have learned... So, win...win! And the nice material seems to gravitate to you with little effort and often at greatly reduced prices.
So, sometimes it pays to have been the Bonsai Fairy.

I like to post the work I have done on the material, I am not concerned about the final product... I like to post projects in varying states, and not concerned with whether others like or dislike my work. For me this is not a beauty pageant, or a social club... this is a Forum where folks come to learn, come to exchange ideas, come to show what they are actually doing and the work they are doing, no matter how pretty or ugly the process... this is not, nor should it ever be a place to just come and show finished trees, this is what shows are for. So, it would be nice if perhaps there was more work being shown, less praise of eye candy and more substance, and encouragement of this substance being posted. I feel this might help rid the Tabloid Magazine feel of this site that we currently all are experiencing?
 
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sorce

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Bonsai Fairy

I am incredibly happy you came back.
Sorry I talked a little shit to you then, but you seemed to need a humbling.

You are my Bonsai Fairy.
You inspired my 187 nana post.

I love how you don't give a f. And give a f at the same time.

What can I say.

You are correct.

Sorce
 

KennedyMarx

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I get what you're saying, but I know that a lot of times that collected material is altered drastically with bends and carving just like you would with crappy box store material. Maybe not the most extreme example, but check this collected Scots pine that Ryan Neil helped style at a workshop:

http://bonsaieejit.com/2013/02/02/sunday-workshop-phil/

This all reminds me of the argument for/against "instant bonsai" that maybe you initiated a while back, Stacy. Would you consider growing from seed to be the ultimate in grunt work? I mean spending 10-20 years growing a maple and training it for bonsai would certainly take more foresight than bending some juniper branching into the shape of a crown.
 

whfarro

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Well articulated.
I think this was a point I tried to make, although nowhere near as effective as you have on another thread. The time in training for the "top rated" trees at the Cup was like 4 -5 yrs. West coast collected trees for the most part. By comparison those east coast entries didn't fair as well in the judging. The east coast trees that placed highest had 40+yrs in training.
Can you even compare a collected RMJ that nature worked centuries on to a Maple that a dedicated artist poured his lifetime into. Perhaps that is the crossroads we are at.
 
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I am incredibly happy you came back.
Sorry I talked a little shit to you then, but you seemed to need a humbling.

You are my Bonsai Fairy.
You inspired my 187 nana post.

I love how you don't give a f. And give a f at the same time.

What can I say.

You are correct.

Sorce
Anyone of any age...
might remember Elizabeth from the sitcom "Sanford and Sons" saying the following... "Sanford, the truth will set you free..."
 

KennedyMarx

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Well articulated.
I think this was a point I tried to make, although nowhere near as effective as you have on another thread. The time in training for the "top rated" trees at the Cup was like 4 -5 yrs. West coast collected trees for the most part. By comparison those east coast entries didn't fair as well in the judging. The east coast trees that placed highest had 40+yrs in training.
Can you even compare a collected RMJ that nature worked centuries on to a Maple that a dedicated artist poured his lifetime into. Perhaps that is the crossroads we are at.

I was surprised that they didn't have a separate category for broadleaf trees. How many broadleaf trees even made it into the Artisan's Cup?
 
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I get what you're saying, but I know that a lot of times that collected material is altered drastically with bends and carving just like you would with crappy box store material. Maybe not the most extreme example, but check this collected Scots pine that Ryan Neil helped style at a workshop:

http://bonsaieejit.com/2013/02/02/sunday-workshop-phil/

This all reminds me of the argument for/against "instant bonsai" that maybe you initiated a while back, Stacy. Would you consider growing from seed to be the ultimate in grunt work? I mean spending 10-20 years growing a maple and training it for bonsai would certainly take more foresight than bending some juniper branching into the shape of a crown.
Thanks for the reply!

I understand and agree with the point you are making regarding Ryan. He has learned this knowledge and knows how to do the work. How to push a piece of material... so, no argument here, in fact I agree.

Where I see the disconnect, is in what folks are taking away from the overall picture... and what is often being transferred down the lines. The train of logic, that in order for one to learn or be any good at bonsai... they must get quality material... this for me is like putting the cart before the horse.

As I have said in this post and in the discussion over instant bonsai... same discussion... same results.

Ryan knows how to push the limits of the material... he has been fortunate enough to have studied under a teacher who taught him these type of operations. He, has also been fortunate enough to actually do alot of the work first hand and has learned to do it. Alot of folks will never get this opportunity, and have to learn somewhere. Quality material will not teach an artist to paint.

As far as growing a maple from seed... it is no different than the apex of the juniper you speak of... in fact one is actually doing the same thing. Changing the predetermined destiny of how the material would normally of grown and altering to fit the artist's conception of how they want it to be.

In fact, I would actually argue that the work I have done on Junipers had actually opened up whole new approaches to how I work with and design deciduous trees. So, I would recommend to folks who only like deciduous trees to broaden their horizon.

As far as growing from seed itself... yes one can... however unless it is the intention of one wanting to right off the bat willing to influence a trunks movement through wiring, one is going to have a long time waiting. Often these same choices can be done on fairly establish stock through means of chops and new branches.
 

aml1014

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I agree 100% I have a buddy who has been doing this for far less time then I yet he goes and spends hundreds on material that he doesn't have the slightest idea to style so at which point he takes it to my club workshops and has the main man in our club style them. It irritates me seeing how people could just want a finished tree and not actually work to get something to that point where as I buy cheap stuff and I've done research, experimented, and leaned how to care for these trees and improve them year by year and watch them get better. I agree with you 100%, I personally think in general Americans and even westerners in general want instant satisfaction which is something this art is not.
 

KennedyMarx

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I agree 100% I have a buddy who has been doing this for far less time then I yet he goes and spends hundreds on material that he doesn't have the slightest idea to style so at which point he takes it to my club workshops and has the main man in our club style them. It irritates me seeing how people could just want a finished tree and not actually work to get something to that point where as I buy cheap stuff and I've done research, experimented, and leaned how to care for these trees and improve them year by year and watch them get better. I agree with you 100%, I personally think in general Americans and even westerners in general want instant satisfaction which is something this art is not.

It's not just Americans. People in Japan buy specimen level bonsai and have caretakers maintain them so they can show them at the big shows there and get awards. A big part of Kouka-En nursery's thing is restyling unmaintained trees for clients that want to submit trees to those top tier exhibitions.
 
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Well articulated.
I think this was a point I tried to make, although nowhere near as effective as you have on another thread. The time in training for the "top rated" trees at the Cup was like 4 -5 yrs. West coast collected trees for the most part. By comparison those east coast entries didn't fair as well in the judging. The east coast trees that placed highest had 40+yrs in training.
Can you even compare a collected RMJ that nature worked centuries on to a Maple that a dedicated artist poured his lifetime into. Perhaps that is the crossroads we are at.
Without getting into the Cup to much, seeing that it was not my intention of this thread... there are alot of variables I think at play, and why things went the way they did.
However, for me I am concerned about the message being taken away from the event... I personally am a fan of alot of the type trees that were shown and won awards, and as I replied to KennedyMarx ' s post I don't underestimate the severity of the work that was done on the type of trees shown, and it the short amount of time.

For me, the work being done was the same, they were just able to do it in less time due to the differing types of material. Does this mean it was better work? I don't think this is a true evaluation. I think if a judge has to evaluate what is before them at that point and time, and follow the rules put forth by which to vote by, their decision is based on the here and now. The material that won, obviously fit this decision.

Problem, I see with how this is all interpreted going forth, is first it does give the feeling as you have suggested, that because they were not judged independently, that why should one bother spending 40 years developing a tree... when they can go out and in a couple of years have a tree winning awards. Secondly, because no one actually knows the work that went into the development... I feel it gives a false impression of what often is really not the case. Yes, it might of only took a short amount of time, but the artist spent years developing their craft to get it to this point of where they could only have to spend a few years on the tree...

Thus, the idea being past along, that one should get good material to work on in order to learn... I am putting forth the notion that the material did not teach them how to do this... the artist taught themselves. Now, if you are lucky enough to only work on top notch quality to learn from cool, if some fool is willing to let you take their trees an try and push them to the limits, knowing very well you don't know what you are doing and are trying to learn... I would keep them close! They are a good friend, seeing that they care more about you progressing, than they do their trees... I would suggest for the rest of us... not to kill off nice material trying to learn.
 
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carp

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Can you even compare a collected RMJ that nature worked centuries on to a Maple that a dedicated artist poured his lifetime into. Perhaps that is the crossroads we are at.

Yes, you can. Look at the years of Kokufu. 2015 top award winner was a Japanese Maple.
 
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I agree 100% I have a buddy who has been doing this for far less time then I yet he goes and spends hundreds on material that he doesn't have the slightest idea to style so at which point he takes it to my club workshops and has the main man in our club style them. It irritates me seeing how people could just want a finished tree and not actually work to get something to that point where as I buy cheap stuff and I've done research, experimented, and leaned how to care for these trees and improve them year by year and watch them get better. I agree with you 100%, I personally think in general Americans and even westerners in general want instant satisfaction which is something this art is not.
Man, this happens where you live as well?
See, I was under the impression it only happens here... at least this was the feeling I got when ever I have brought this up before!

Hey, on the bright side, at least the guy doing the styling for this individual, has constant employment!

Eventually, you will find, that you will be that guy.
 
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Yes, you can. Look at the years of Kokufu. 2015 top award winner was a Japanese Maple.
Historically, however there can be made the argument that Conifers often do place higher.

This is not to say that the conifers that have placed higher do not deserve this awarding... often the years of development have taken just as long, if not longer in some cases as perhaps the maples might have taken.

The problem here with the Artisans Cup, us that there are a whole slew of other variables as to why perhaps trees like maples did not fair so well. Which I think gives the rest of us observing a false impression.
 

coh

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As far as I know, the next Artisans Cup in the U.S. isn't planned until 2025 in NYC. In the meantime, there will be a number of National Exhibits in Rochester. That show gives category-based awards (best deciduous, best native species, best tropical, etc) so there will be options to win awards with non-collected conifer monsters, if winning those types of awards is your goal.

If your goal is simply to enjoy the hobby and develop trees to the best of your ability, then who really cares if someone enters a tree they haven't styled or even seen in person, and wins the award? That doesn't diminish your efforts, unless you let it.

Regarding posting material in development here on the forum...those posts are often largely ignored in favor of the advanced trees (as well as the bs and drivel posts). It takes time and effort to take photos and post them, so when people post their efforts and ask for feedback and repeatedly get little or nothing in return...why keep posting? May as well post them on facebook or on a blog.

Future of American bonsai? There may be push by some toward collected conifer monsters that have only been in training for a few years, but it will eventually pass. In the meantime, the rest of us can quietly go about our work, slowly developing our trees and enjoying the process.
 
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As far as I know, the next Artisans Cup in the U.S. isn't planned until 2025 in NYC. In the meantime, there will be a number of National Exhibits in Rochester. That show gives category-based awards (best deciduous, best native species, best tropical, etc) so there will be options to win awards with non-collected conifer monsters, if winning those types of awards is your goal.

If your goal is simply to enjoy the hobby and develop trees to the best of your ability, then who really cares if someone enters a tree they haven't styled or even seen in person, and wins the award? That doesn't diminish your efforts, unless you let it.

Regarding posting material in development here on the forum...those posts are often largely ignored in favor of the advanced trees (as well as the bs and drivel posts). It takes time and effort to take photos and post them, so when people post their efforts and ask for feedback and repeatedly get little or nothing in return...why keep posting? May as well post them on facebook or on a blog.

Future of American bonsai? There may be push by some toward collected conifer monsters that have only been in training for a few years, but it will eventually pass. In the meantime, the rest of us can quietly go about our work, slowly developing our trees and enjoying the process.
Sorry don't mean to run my tread by constantly replying... just have time on my hands... sitting waiting on my car to be serviced, and bored!!!

Seeing that everyone wants to talk about shows... I would agree with what you have posted... for a lot of folks doing them and the possibility of winning an award is not important, it is more just about doing the art. No problem with this. For others they like the satisfaction of going through this process and having their work being judged against other work.

Some, find satisfaction in the fact that they have beaten others and thus it is more about this type of game... others find satisfaction in the fact that the type of work they have done is of the quality that is being respected and judged by their fellow artist of deserving an award.
So, in this instance, I think a process of giving awards can be quite rewarding, and in fact a great honor. One has spent years perfecting their art, and and award perhaps gives them the feeling that what they were doing was right, and all the hard work has paid off. I see no problem with this scenario either... in life we often set goals as a means to improve. I don't think this does not mean one does not enjoy what they are doing, or does not enjoy bonsai, just different approaches and ways of looking at what they are doing.

I like the idea of awards being given to the different types of trees... and feel this really is the best approach. ABS has for years also included into their judging Amatures and Professionals into alot of their judging and awarding, although often the lines here could be blurred.

As far as posting and not posting here... I have posted hundreds upon hundreds of pictures of work with usually no responses... and yes it takes a lot of time! And is rather frustrating at times, and every time I post and this happens, I wonder why should I bother???

Then I ask myself why do I post in the first place? To which the answer quickly comes, because I do so for me! I an proud of my work and want to show it off! I worked hard doing it, had to endure years of folks yelling me what I could and could not do, and figured out for myself what could and could not be done. Most of what I was told along the way was BS anyways. Then there are the folks that don't like me for what ever reason, list them??? They don't want to post on my threads cause they can't get over their beef with me... Yet, I can pretty much guarantee they still click on my threads and look at the pictures I post! I am only getting better at doing Bonsai and them not liking me has done nothing to stop this.

Every time I have ever posted a thread like this, with the same message, I have always gotten the same type responses and lack of any comments by folks who hold differing views than I regarding working on crappy material to progress... the problem here is that one cannot deny that the proof is in the pudding. And what I am saying actually works.
 
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KennedyMarx

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I always enjoy seeing your threads, Stacy. You push the limits a lot of times with the material. I get how it can be disappointing to put work into sharing the documentation then getting no responses. Sometimes, I don't really have anything to add though. "Cool tree" just seems like a hollow response. I've posted threads and got nothing before. I mean, at least tell me the tree is a worthless piece of crap. :p When I first started with bonsai I got bunch of tropical material and I've been trying to reduce that and increase material that will sit outside all year. I've tried to be somewhat thrifty so a lot of my material is growing out or a ways from looking decent at all, so I haven't made any point to post it. I just think, would I want to see this if it were someone else's junk instead of mine? Sorry, kind of went off on a tangent here I guess.
 

Anthony

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Stacy,

Bonsai needs Horticulture and Art training [ some Sculpture ] let me know when it happens, and how different the trained trees look.
Otherwise don't fuss yourself, it will all be forgotten.
I do believe you can do it - make the change.
Good Day
Anthony
 
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