Bonsai NOT character assasinations

Saddler

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Your welcome and I hope your trees bring you all the enjoyment mine do.
My three biggest enjoyments in life are:
1: cooking
2: bonsai
3: my son

Not sure where that falls in context with your enjoyment of small trees but I hope it explains mine somewhat.

I really hope you continue with these Show Us Your Technique (And Tree) posts. They are of great value to someone like me.
 

Bananaman

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Now post #38 onwards is what I love to see from Bananaman...um Smoke.... um Smoking Banana. (Sorry, I get confused easily).
You guys are the one that dictates what comes from me. I just ask the questions and everyone gets butt hurt cause they don't want to have their knowledge questioned. I live in the real world guys. No sugar coating from me.
 

Bananaman

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My three biggest enjoyments in life are:
1: cooking
2: bonsai
3: my son

Not sure where that falls in context with your enjoyment of small trees but I hope it explains mine somewhat.

I really hope you continue with these Show Us Your Technique (And Tree) posts. They are of great value to someone like me.
Mine are:
1. Eating
2. Bonsai
3. Glad my kids are gone
 

Saddler

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We would need a month
I have at least two weeks worth of meat aging in my meat fridge, not including three types of bacon I make that have to keep at work. When you tell me you are coming, I’ll get more. If you like beer, I just happen to have a couple hundred bottles in my beer cellar... I love a good beer with better conversation. Apparently beer is easier to come by then good conversation.
 

MichaelS

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To this day no one has given me a reasonable answer to holding off pruning till a plant hardens off. I know what the text books say...ah duhh.. I can read folks...But what is the purpose of holding back your bonsai plant till the middle of summer to begin pruning it back to induce budding. If anyone here can explain that and show me why what I do, which seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom, is wrong, I will eat my hat. I think I have shown plenty of examples of how I prune my trees and when I do it and how soon after repotting I begin. Like within weeks.
Easy. If you let the shoot mature, you allow it to build up carbohydrates in the stem and it then has a lot more potential for shooting strongly. (sugar = potential energy) That's why you will not get good (or as good) results from defoliation of (apricots or apples for example) until the leaves have matured to a rough leathery condition and the stem has begun to get some colour into it. Pinching soft growth is ok too but results in weaker growth - which may be exactly what you want.
 

Paulpash

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To this day no one has given me a reasonable answer to holding off pruning till a plant hardens off.

It may be appropriate to wait till hardening off occurs because at this point thickening has occurred that is in proportion to what you want to achieve, eg primary branch building phase on bigger trees.

The tree below is a blackthorn (Prunus Spinosa). It is a large specimen - the base is the length of a chopstick - 9 inches. The first 2 inches of the branch structure were gross grown until they hardened off then severely cut back to 1/2 nodes to induce movement and taper. Cutting the shoots off prematurely slows down the formative stages of building longer branches on bigger trees in terms of thickening & its response afterward to build section 2.

This is the 2nd season it's been in training - if I had pinched these branches would not be as far along as they are now (still a long way to go as is the case with big deciduous trees in countries with a 'mediocre' growing season).

Edit: the bottom branch only popped this year. It has been given free reign to grow til last week as it is playing catch up with the ones started earlier.
 

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KiwiPlantGuy

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It may be appropriate to wait till hardening off occurs because at this point thickening has occurred that is in proportion to what you want to achieve, eg primary branch building phase on bigger trees.

The tree below is a blackthorn (Prunus Spinosa). It is a large specimen - the base is the length of a chopstick - 9 inches. The first 2 inches of the branch structure were gross grown until they hardened off then severely cut back to 1/2 nodes to induce movement and taper. Cutting the shoots off prematurely slows down the formative stages of building longer branches on bigger trees in terms of thickening & its response afterward to build section 2.

This is the 2nd season it's been in training - if I had pinched these branches would not be as far along as they are now (still a long way to go as is the case with big deciduous trees in countries with a 'mediocre' growing season).

Edit: the bottom branch only popped this year. It has been given free reign to grow til last week as it is playing catch up with the ones started earlier.

Hi Paulpash,
Nice starter tree here and thank you for your contribution.
Charles
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi all,
Just WOW, wasn’t expecting that direction this thread ended up going. ???
Thank you to all who have shared their opinion, especially @Bananaman for his amazing tutorial on Lignification or was that hardening growth. Too much info there for a first time read.
Charles
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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You guys are the one that dictates what comes from me. I just ask the questions and everyone gets butt hurt cause they don't want to have their knowledge questioned. I live in the real world guys. No sugar coating from me.

Hi Bananaman,
I just wanted to seek clarification on the trimming/hedging as a ramification practice. As stated in my initial post I don’t have any trees anywhere near ready to start building secondary or tertiary branching.
So, I thought I might try an effort in understanding your lessons by asking a few questions and your “yes or no” answers should help fill the blanks.
1. As I understand growth on deciduous trees - the first 10 - 14 days of a growth cycle (or all the time in my zone) the tree has grown 2-4 mature leaves and is still growing more.
Is this the point which you would start the trimming back to approximately that second or third mature leaf??
Do you then at the end of the season then trim off the growth back to a silouette of sorts?
2. This is where the confusion lies - I have been lead to believe that the tree needs to do photosynthesis on the whole first growth spurt, then trim etc. Your theory is that the tree is photosynthesising enough with 2-4 mature leaves and why wait when you are not hurting the tree. Correct?
3. To control internode length, I have been lead to believe that if you were to pinch just after bud burst, leaving those new growths to lignify, then the tree will send out another spurt of growth which you can pinch again.
Is this old technique? Is any of this valid or just tedious and hedge trimmers work just as well?

I look forward to showing you and others what I have learnt via my tree threads, and obviously would be happy for the critique to make my design or growing skills better.
Many thanks for all the advice in this thread, and big thumbs up from me ?? for sharing a tonne of time to explain these principles.
Charles
 

Bananaman

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Hi Bananaman,
I just wanted to seek clarification on the trimming/hedging as a ramification practice. As stated in my initial post I don’t have any trees anywhere near ready to start building secondary or tertiary branching.
So, I thought I might try an effort in understanding your lessons by asking a few questions and your “yes or no” answers should help fill the blanks.
1. As I understand growth on deciduous trees - the first 10 - 14 days of a growth cycle (or all the time in my zone) the tree has grown 2-4 mature leaves and is still growing more.
Is this the point which you would start the trimming back to approximately that second or third mature leaf??
Do you then at the end of the season then trim off the growth back to a silouette of sorts?
2. This is where the confusion lies - I have been lead to believe that the tree needs to do photosynthesis on the whole first growth spurt, then trim etc. Your theory is that the tree is photosynthesising enough with 2-4 mature leaves and why wait when you are not hurting the tree. Correct?
3. To control internode length, I have been lead to believe that if you were to pinch just after bud burst, leaving those new growths to lignify, then the tree will send out another spurt of growth which you can pinch again.
Is this old technique? Is any of this valid or just tedious and hedge trimmers work just as well?

I look forward to showing you and others what I have learnt via my tree threads, and obviously would be happy for the critique to make my design or growing skills better.
Many thanks for all the advice in this thread, and big thumbs up from me ?? for sharing a tonne of time to explain these principles.
Charles
A short answer because I’m at work. First when I begin the building of branches I want to have a ton of small stuff to work with. From that I begin the choice process. What I want is all that small growth to have short internodes. I want my primary and even secondary branches to have twigs or secondaries if working on a primary to fork close to the trunk. What I see here at this place is rookie moves, or lack of what is visually interesting is setting up the branches properly from the start. There is nothing worse than having a deciduous tree with a primary then four inches then it forks then two inches and starts twigging. It’s just too spread out. Now that can look cool on some species when done properly and the branches are made to look old and spooky and look like the “Angel Oak”. Look it up on google. Of course the spooky look is not a cop out for doing the proper work. Just like a windswept or cascade is not the answer for a stupid procumbens juniper.

More later, thanks also for the kind words.
 

Adair M

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Al, your posts on this thread detailing the work you did on your maple have been very well received.

They’re very much like the threads @markscott creates about his Maples, and the procedures he performs on them.

Very helpful indeed.

What people don’t seem to like is the rather snarky “questions” posts where you say you know the answer, but are testing everyone else’s knowledge. These come off poorly. No one wants to attempt to answer because they may interpret the question differently, or whatever, and then they don’t want to be ridiculed if their answer doesn’t match what you have in mind.

People don’t come here to be challenged. They come here to get information and/or help. They come here to share their trees. They. One here to share what they’ve learned.

They don’t come here to be put down. Your snarky “questions” are challenging others. Sure, there are plenty of us who may use poor technique, or not know good technique, or who have been taught by someone who wasn’t very good, or has tried to self teach themselves and has gone astray. None of us is perfect. We’re all learning.

But no one want to be put down by a smartass, whether he’s “earned the right to be one” or not.

Think about it, Al. Has anyone complained about how @markyscott is a jerk? He puts out quality info, stuff in process, just like you’re saying that no one does. But you deride him because he’s a Boon student. He’s a smart guy, Al. He has a PhD, in fact. But he’s humble enough to know he doesn’t know it all. None of us do. Even you.

If you want respect, Al, stop being snarky, and just be informative. If you want to pose a question to gets people thinking, just pose it, followed by the answer. Don’t wait for weeks, complaining that no one has responded, effectively calling all of us idiots. We’re not idiots, Al, we’re just tired of your games. We don’t come here to play mind games. We come here to discuss bonsai.

And, I’m sure I’m on ignore. C’est la vie...
 

coh

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Al, your posts on this thread detailing the work you did on your maple have been very well received.

They’re very much like the threads @markscott creates about his Maples, and the procedures he performs on them.

Very helpful indeed.

What people don’t seem to like is the rather snarky “questions” posts where you say you know the answer, but are testing everyone else’s knowledge. These come off poorly. No one wants to attempt to answer because they may interpret the question differently, or whatever, and then they don’t want to be ridiculed if their answer doesn’t match what you have in mind.

People don’t come here to be challenged. They come here to get information and/or help. They come here to share their trees. They. One here to share what they’ve learned.

They don’t come here to be put down. Your snarky “questions” are challenging others. Sure, there are plenty of us who may use poor technique, or not know good technique, or who have been taught by someone who wasn’t very good, or has tried to self teach themselves and has gone astray. None of us is perfect. We’re all learning.

But no one want to be put down by a smartass, whether he’s “earned the right to be one” or not.

Think about it, Al. Has anyone complained about how @markyscott is a jerk? He puts out quality info, stuff in process, just like you’re saying that no one does. But you deride him because he’s a Boon student. He’s a smart guy, Al. He has a PhD, in fact. But he’s humble enough to know he doesn’t know it all. None of us do. Even you.

If you want respect, Al, stop being snarky, and just be informative. If you want to pose a question to gets people thinking, just pose it, followed by the answer. Don’t wait for weeks, complaining that no one has responded, effectively calling all of us idiots. We’re not idiots, Al, we’re just tired of your games. We don’t come here to play mind games. We come here to discuss bonsai.

And, I’m sure I’m on ignore. C’est la vie...

Adair, Adair...LOL. Al often says this place is entertainment for him so this behavior will never change no matter how much logic you throw at it. I had hoped that the rebooted v2.0 of Smoke would be different. Oh well.

Anway, to add to your comments - Al, we're not here to prove anything to you or anyone else. You say you have nothing against Ryan Neil and Bonsai Mirai, but your actual written words over countless posts suggest otherwise. And I'm still waiting for you to show us where you were called a racist and a homophobe on this forum after telling a one month bonsai expert they were wrong. Come on, it shouldn't be hard to prove something like that!
 

Johnathan

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Al, your posts on this thread detailing the work you did on your maple have been very well received.

They’re very much like the threads @markscott creates about his Maples, and the procedures he performs on them.

Very helpful indeed.

What people don’t seem to like is the rather snarky “questions” posts where you say you know the answer, but are testing everyone else’s knowledge. These come off poorly. No one wants to attempt to answer because they may interpret the question differently, or whatever, and then they don’t want to be ridiculed if their answer doesn’t match what you have in mind.

People don’t come here to be challenged. They come here to get information and/or help. They come here to share their trees. They. One here to share what they’ve learned.

They don’t come here to be put down. Your snarky “questions” are challenging others. Sure, there are plenty of us who may use poor technique, or not know good technique, or who have been taught by someone who wasn’t very good, or has tried to self teach themselves and has gone astray. None of us is perfect. We’re all learning.

But no one want to be put down by a smartass, whether he’s “earned the right to be one” or not.

Think about it, Al. Has anyone complained about how @markyscott is a jerk? He puts out quality info, stuff in process, just like you’re saying that no one does. But you deride him because he’s a Boon student. He’s a smart guy, Al. He has a PhD, in fact. But he’s humble enough to know he doesn’t know it all. None of us do. Even you.

If you want respect, Al, stop being snarky, and just be informative. If you want to pose a question to gets people thinking, just pose it, followed by the answer. Don’t wait for weeks, complaining that no one has responded, effectively calling all of us idiots. We’re not idiots, Al, we’re just tired of your games. We don’t come here to play mind games. We come here to discuss bonsai.

And, I’m sure I’m on ignore. C’est la vie...

@markyscott probably drives a Tesla. That guy is swagalicious!
 
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