bonsai paste

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,098
Reaction score
30,139
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
The species are made of wood, they are in an environment less hospital than a bonsai on a bench in my yard (I'm not so sure about your yard) where they are less exposed to evil pathogens (I'm not so sure about your yard), and the studies were conducted by scientists that have bona fides (I'm not so sure about your yard), and conducted in a manner accepted by the scientific community (I'm not so sure about your yard). Et tu @Dav4

Maybe in True Believer Georgia, modern science is beyond the ken?

Take that!
Nope. As Adair pointed out, you’re comparing apples and oranges. In my experience, wounds heal significantly faster with sealants applied, and this is most notable when used with deciduous species ( I suspect your trees might not be growing vigorously enough to note the difference?). As far as the “true believer/modern science “ jab goes, I hold a B.S. in botany as well as a veterinary medical degree, that I use quite successfully every day to support my family... take that!
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,991
Reaction score
46,122
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
The species are made of wood, they are in an environment less hospital than a bonsai on a bench in my yard (I'm not so sure about your yard) where they are less exposed to evil pathogens (I'm not so sure about your yard), and the studies were conducted by scientists that have bona fides (I'm not so sure about your yard), and conducted in a manner accepted by the scientific community (I'm not so sure about your yard). Et tu @Dav4

Maybe in True Believer Georgia, modern science is beyond the ken?

Take that!
I have learned a few tips while reading this book to my 10-year old my son.
I wish I was a little better at applying them myself, but it’s a work in progress.
81CAF107-116D-499C-8FD8-91174EED1972.jpeg
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,251
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
I hold a B.S. in botany as well as a veterinary medical degree, that I use quite successfully every day to support my family... take that!

Shigo published results of 13 years of research on wound dressings

Did you open the file and read it? How does your education and the study square? You didn't get that degree in Georgia, did you?
 

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,098
Reaction score
30,139
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
Did you open the file and read it? How does your education and the study square? You didn't get that degree in Georgia, did you?
I read it years ago... doesn’t apply to bonsai in my opinion. I’m from the northeast, as are the colleges and universities where I studied, not that it should matter...
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,251
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
Facetiousness knows no geographical boundaries. I would be interested in the specifics that separate the two sets of physical conditions, that in one the tree's chemistry is primary, but in yours the goop is primary?
 

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,098
Reaction score
30,139
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
Facetiousness knows no geographical boundaries. I would be interested in the specifics that separate the two sets of physical conditions, that in one the tree's chemistry is primary, but in yours the goop is primary?
There is NO difference in tree chemistry or physical conditions (other then the fact my trees are potted, root restricted, pruned fertilized, treated for pests, etc. - could be an influencing factor in there but I can’t quantify it) but, rather, a difference in the end goal.
When I use sealants on my bonsai or trees in training I want the forming callus to quickly cover the wound and provide aesthetically pleasing results. I’m honestly not concerned about decay as long as the wound heals first and looks good. With cuts on landscape or forest trees, it’s all about technique. I’ve never used sealants when pruning yard trees and never will. When I use cut paste on my trees (particularly deciduous trees), I almost always like the results, and when I don’t, well...
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,885
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
The species are made of wood, they are in an environment less hospital than a bonsai on a bench in my yard (I'm not so sure about your yard) where they are less exposed to evil pathogens (I'm not so sure about your yard), and the studies were conducted by scientists that have bona fides (I'm not so sure about your yard), and conducted in a manner accepted by the scientific community (I'm not so sure about your yard). Et tu @Dav4

Maybe in True Believer Georgia, modern science is beyond the ken?

Take that!
All “wood” is not the same. Wood of deciduous hardwood treees is very different than, say, a pine. Or an azalea. Was the scientific study performed on Japanese Maples?

No. These studies were performed on trees grown for lumber. They don’t care about bad sunsightly callous tissue, or reverse taper, or developing trunks with no apparent scars. They only cared about creating trunks with harvestable lumber.

How many of those arborists did their tests on bonsai? Trees we want to live in perpetuity in a pot? Those guys were growing trees designed to be cut down for lumber. They want trees to grow as tall and as fast and as straight as possible. Do you want your bonsai to be like that that? If you do, then follow their instructions. If not, then you might ought to open your mind to the practices of the people who have generations of experience of producing high quality bonsai. I can guarantee not one of those guys who did that study used a bonsai as part of their methodology.
 

Nanuk

Shohin
Messages
392
Reaction score
552
Location
Warner Robins Georgia
USDA Zone
8A
Did you open the file and read it? How does your education and the study square? You didn't get that degree in Georgia, did you?

Your snide comments about the state I happen to live in shows me a lot about your character.
It makes you look petty.

But carry on, I just won't take anything you say seriously.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,339
Reaction score
23,278
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
@Peter44 - I use the Top Jin, the stuff that dries orange, as my main initial cut paste, It is a must for azalea & Japanese Maples, to prevent disease from getting into the trunk. For large cuts on azalea and JM, I will put a layer of Top Jin down, then a day or two later, cover with a putty. The putty will keep the wound moist, necessary for the cambium to more rapidly grow and cover the wound.

The glazier's putty, also known as window calk, I've used the one from Dap, it works fine. Basically it is clay, as in pottery clay, mixed with linseed oil and a preservative or two.

The cans of Japanese putty used as cut paste are pretty dry and hard, but if you warm a blob up in your hand, or a few second, just a few, not too long, in the microwave it becomes soft enough.

Maples, azalea, and hornbeam are the trees I find cut paste most useful for. There may be others that should be on the list. Many other trees I've taken to leaving a long stub, let it dry and a year or two later trimming it short. Usually skip the cut paste, but sometimes not.

As for that forestry orientated article, forget it. It does not apply to what we are doing.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,885
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I just did a cut-back on a Shohin azalea I’m developing. I sealed all the cuts with @Top-Jin”. The orange stuff.

53EE5CDB-E1CB-4BA9-A3FB-2911174396BE.jpeg

Top-Jin is really good for azalea. They tend to die back easily, and once a water line starts to die back, it can die back all the way to the roots! Top-Jin has anti-fungal and antiseptics which help stop die back from starting. It’s water soluable, though, so tomorrow after it dries, I’ll go back and apply the duct seal stuff that Dav4 pictured. That will prevent the Top-Jin from dissolving away.

Yes, I know I cut off most of the flower buds. I did this intentionally. It hadn’t started growing yet this season, so I caught it just in time! Satsuki azalea put out a spurt of vegetative growth, then pause to bloom, then grow again. By cutting off mist of the flowers, the tree will lose little energy blooming, and therefore will put on more vegetative growth. I did leave a few blooms. I like them, too! But I want more structural growth at this stage in its development.

1739DCA1-DE4E-4E27-80BC-94F215E4C59E.jpeg

You can see what all I cut off!
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,885
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Since I was in an “azalea frame of mind”, I went ahead and pruned a more advanced Shohin azalea:

Before:

B6C84789-691C-4774-9802-A1A11A074CF7.jpeg

51746296-F556-498E-8D60-F1C8DA365D6F.jpeg

EE62E9A2-8BD5-44EF-9A8F-760BFCC79EC9.jpeg

09990167-8100-4F7B-8D27-00CA2EBEFF29.jpeg

After:

6B309898-D004-4F61-823B-634D2905ED1D.jpeg

6769FF4F-EFCB-4535-98A9-3FC2F1BAEEFA.jpeg

3050C02C-0E39-4E31-8207-1B186B7A96D3.jpeg

F89AE9F3-B3D5-411A-9186-E2E675E6AEAA.jpeg

Now, it needs a little wiring!
 

Gary McCarthy

Chumono
Messages
549
Reaction score
717
Location
Buffalo/Rochester NY area
USDA Zone
6a

Orion_metalhead

Masterpiece
Messages
3,091
Reaction score
4,668
Location
Central NJ
USDA Zone
7a
@Peter44
The glazier's putty, also known as window calk, I've used the one from Dap, it works fine. Basically it is clay, as in pottery clay, mixed with linseed oil and a preservative or two.

Leo, this is the '33 glazing? How would that work by itself or do you always have to put the paste under it?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,339
Reaction score
23,278
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Leo, this is the '33 glazing? How would that work by itself or do you always have to put the paste under it?

I've used it by itself. I had no problem I recall. The fungicide in "Top Jin'' is what sold me on using the orange stuff. It is not a good moisture barrier, so for some cuts I started adding putty of one sort or another.
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,251
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
you might ought to open your mind to the practices of the people who have generations of experience of producing high quality bonsai. I can guarantee not one of those guys who did that study used a bonsai as part of their methodology.
OK, you didn't read much of it, but others considering the issues here might find it cogent. And, people can take for what it's worth whether or not the wood is different if you whisper in its knothole, "Grow like bonsai, 'cause if you grow like lumber, you're a different kind of wood." Sure. I'm convinced!
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,885
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
OK, you didn't read much of it, but others considering the issues here might find it cogent. And, people can take for what it's worth whether or not the wood is different if you whisper in its knothole, "Grow like bonsai, 'cause if you grow like lumber, you're a different kind of wood." Sure. I'm convinced!
Forsoothe!, i read those studies years ago.

The main contributor to rapid wound healing (or encapsulation) is strong apical growth. Timber in a forest tends to grow straight up. Each tree is in competition for the light with its neighbor. The fastest grower gets the sun.

Do your bonsai have to compete for sunlight?

Do Timber trees get pruned? No. Do bonsai? Most certainly. For the most part, bonsai are not allowed to grow uninhibited.

The best way to “close a wound” low on a bonsai is to let the apex grow unchecked. Whether wound sealant is applied or not. (Or let a sacrifice branch grow above the wound). Of course, you get another wound to heal when the apex or sacrifice is cut back.

A factor in the ability to grow tall rapidly is the ability for roots to grow uninhibited.

Are your bonsai roots inhibited? Mine are. They’re in pots. Every so often, I go in and cut roots off. Timber trees are never root pruned, and there are no restrictions on their growth.

My point is, the growing conditions our bonsai have are so radically different than a timber forest the study is invalid for bonsai.

And your claim that “wood is wood” is just ignorant. No, I take that back. I know you really don’t believe that. It’s just denial.
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,251
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
My point is, the growing conditions our bonsai have are so radically different than a timber forest the study is invalid for bonsai.
In your humble opinion. I disagree. You on the other hand, are disagreeable and offer your extrapolations as proof. I choose to put more weight and faith in the study cited.
 
Top Bottom