Bonsai Today Masters' Series Pine Book vs. Volume 20

sparklemotion

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I've given up on trying to find a (legal) copy of Bonsai Today Vol. 20. I will save you my internal rant regarding artificial scarcity caused by physical media.

In my search, I ran across this book from Stone Lantern. Description:

Pine bonsai trees. The definitive how-to & care book on Black and White Pine Bonsai trees with detailed instructions by some of the world's greatest Bonsai Masters. This thorough and complete book will help you in your quest to design, style and maintain beautiful pine bonsai. Includes: needle reduction, energy balancing, styles and styling, nebari development, branch development, trunk taper, sacrifice branches, bending large branches, rock planting, transplanting, choosing the right pot, plant positioning, growing from seed, care and maintenance, Superfeeding, winter care and much much more. Bonsai Today Masters' Series, Softcover. 8 1/2" x 11" 184 pages.
Can anyone confirm that the content of the elusive Bonsai Today Vol. 20 (regarding growing JBP from seed) is reproduced in here?

Full disclosure: I've already ordered the book, I just want to know whether I should keep looking for that back issue.
 

Anthony

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Why not just ask someone on your side to simply photo copy the
pages ?

Sure you are not looking for Issue no. 12 page 19
Which deals with the growing of thick trunk pines.
Also he briefly outlines another technique for pines more balanced in quality.

No. 20 is about 6 inch or shorter pines.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Bonsai Nut

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Can anyone confirm that the content of the elusive Bonsai Today Vol. 20 (regarding growing JBP from seed) is reproduced in here?

Full disclosure: I've already ordered the book, I just want to know whether I should keep looking for that back issue.
Yes and no. Yes the article that most people are referring to (growing pine from seed in colanders) is in there. However in issue 20 there is also an article about growing JBP cascades... which is not in the compilation.

Also, the article Anthony is referring to (in issue 12) is not in there... which is slightly different but complimentary to issue 20. The issue 12 article introduced the idea of using seedling cuttings and goes a little deeper into rooting hormone use, etc. But it focuses on development of bigger trees and quite honestly has a 20 year horizon from start to finish.

The issue 20 article was remarkable in that it showed an amazing 4" shohin that had been grown from seed in 6 years. It is the combination of the refinement of the tree and its age that blew people away.
 

sparklemotion

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Why not just ask someone on your side to simply photo copy the
pages ?
Because I don't know anyone personally who has it (I do plan on asking at the next club meeting) and, without getting into the nitty-gritty of US copyright law, I prefer not to play fast and loose with fair-use. Especially if there's some way to provide payment to the rights-holders.
 

sparklemotion

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Yes and no. Yes the article that most people are referring to (growing pine from seed in colanders) is in there. However in issue 20 there is also an article about growing JBP cascades... which is not in the compilation.

Also, the article Anthony is referring to (in issue 12) is not in there... which is slightly different but complimentary to issue 20...
Thanks, this is a exactly the comparison that I was hoping for.
 

Adair M

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Yes and no. Yes the article that most people are referring to (growing pine from seed in colanders) is in there. However in issue 20 there is also an article about growing JBP cascades... which is not in the compilation.

Also, the article Anthony is referring to (in issue 12) is not in there... which is slightly different but complimentary to issue 20. The issue 12 article introduced the idea of using seedling cuttings and goes a little deeper into rooting hormone use, etc. But it focuses on development of bigger trees and quite honestly has a 20 year horizon from start to finish.

The issue 20 article was remarkable in that it showed an amazing 4" shohin that had been grown from seed in 6 years. It is the combination of the refinement of the tree and its age that blew people away.
And, no one I know (and I know a LOT of very accomplished bonsai growers) has been able to duplicate that accomplishment.
 

plant_dr

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I thought that was kind of what the six year contest was for. With so many seedlings
And, no one I know (and I know a LOT of very accomplished bonsai growers) has been able to duplicate that accomplishment.
I thought that's kind of what the six year contest was for. With so many seedlings
being grown by so many people, either some of the trees might get close enough to that picture to prove its possible or none of them will even get remotely close and prove its not possible once and for all.
 

Anthony

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@sparklemotion ,

so you could not just ask here for some help ?
Offer an exchange ?

Hee, hee, we have already sent both articles as photocopies to Denmark.
All you had to do was ask.

Aside, if you grow over say 300 seedlings you are bound to get familiar
with the technique [ as leaves to a tree ] and get the same results as
those in the Bonsai Today articles.

You do realise that in Bonsai Today 12 those large trunks are from growing
in 12 inch clay pots -:):eek:
And that the author also evolved a second way that was more balanced:)
Good Day
Anthony
 

Bonsai Nut

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either some of the trees might get close enough to that picture to prove its possible or none of them will even get remotely close and prove its not possible once and for all.
Given the background of the bonsai grower in the article, I don't think even with our many people trying the contest we will come close to the numbers of pines he has grown over the years prior to the article being written. We might grow 10,000 newbie pines, but he was growing, learning and improving his technique for years before he got the results that were published... and the results were the best of his best.

Still I have wondered about that article for 25 years :) One can only wonder what trees I would own today if I had started 1000 black pines 25 years ago and stuck with them :)
 

Vance Wood

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I've given up on trying to find a (legal) copy of Bonsai Today Vol. 20. I will save you my internal rant regarding artificial scarcity caused by physical media.

In my search, I ran across this book from Stone Lantern. Description:



Can anyone confirm that the content of the elusive Bonsai Today Vol. 20 (regarding growing JBP from seed) is reproduced in here?

Full disclosure: I've already ordered the book, I just want to know whether I should keep looking for that back issue.
If you have the original publications you don't need the book.
 

Anthony

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Information works very well on Tamarinds.
They handle the cut under the cotyledon very well, allows work on 3 to 6 inch
tall efforts.
So if anyone gets a chance try a Tamarind.

Very sensible Vance.

Good Day
Anthony
 

hemmy

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The issue 20 article was remarkable in that it showed an amazing 4" shohin that had been grown from seed in 6 years.
To clarify for those without access to the image, the height was 4” with diameter of 1”. The ramification has pointed out before, but is worth repeating that the tree looks so impressive with only a 1”D trunk due to the dense branching and perfect scale to the very small pot. If the reported dimensions are true, then the pot is ~4.5” long x 2” deep!

I may be captain obvious, but it would seem that all of the other diameter trunks shown on those pages (2.75” - 5.5”D) are attainable in the timeframe listed (e.g., 9, 12, 20 years). However, the level of refinement, compact growth, and needle size are truly amazing. Again worth repeating that it speaks to his skill and attributes of the Yatsubusa cultivar.

The BT#12 article which shows JBP developed for larger bonsai has a 5yo tree with 3”D trunk and low large sacrifice branching but no ramification. I assume this to be a more ‘common’ Japanese variety for bonsai. In the text under a picture of a spectacular 33yo JBP, the authors acknowledge the criticism that their process is too slow and that ground growing or ramification while developing caliper will shorten the process, but it all comes at the sacrifice of the roughness and bark texture of “patiently cultivated bonsai”.

@Bonsai Nut, to the earlier point, does it fall under “fair use” if we posted a thread with few of the images of the potted trees with ages and height/diameters from BT #12 and #20? Maybe we could seek BT/Wayne’s permission to reproduce a few images.
 

sparklemotion

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If you have the original publications you don't need the book.
But it sounds like if you have the book, you don't have everything that was in the original publications. Which is not the end of the world for me, but it's helpful to have the comparison from people who have both resources available.

@Bonsai Nut, to the earlier point, does it fall under “fair use” if we posted a thread with few of the images of the potted trees with ages and height/diameters from BT #12 and #20? Maybe we could seek BT/Wayne’s permission to reproduce a few images.
I'm not anyone's copyright lawyer, but reproducing images, especially just of the finished trees (not the technique steps), is more clearly a fair use, than, say, uploading PDFs of full articles. (not to say that sharing a photocopy/PDF isn't a fair use, it's just a very particular and fuzzy area of law, and I prefer, (personally) to err on the side of paying creators (or at least rights holders) if that possibility is available to me).
 

bwaynef

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The issues come available on FB auctions every once in a while. Its where I got my copies.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I'm not anyone's copyright lawyer, but reproducing images, especially just of the finished trees (not the technique steps), is more clearly a fair use, than, say, uploading PDFs of full articles. (not to say that sharing a photocopy/PDF isn't a fair use, it's just a very particular and fuzzy area of law, and I prefer, (personally) to err on the side of paying creators (or at least rights holders) if that possibility is available to me).
If it was a 25 year old out-of-print magazine article we were talking about, I don't think anyone would care if people were copying it to share info. However since the article was edited and placed in a book, and the book is still for sale (for a relatively modest price of $18.95) I don't think anyone should copy and share the magazine article.
 

Bilbo_Baggins

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Because I don't know anyone personally who has it (I do plan on asking at the next club meeting) and, without getting into the nitty-gritty of US copyright law, I prefer not to play fast and loose with fair-use. Especially if there's some way to provide payment to the rights-holders.
I applaud your integrity and apply the same to myself.

If you keep looking, they can be found.
There is a UK seller of issue #12 but he/she apparently knows what he\she has and is asking £20 plus shipping for it.
Monday I saw a copy of issue #20 AVAILABLE on Amazon for $10 but checking again today, it is already sold.

You can also search eBay frequently but I wouldn't advise using their "alert" feature because it seldom works and when it does, it is almost always slow to alert you.

Good Luck!
 

sparklemotion

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Thanks! £20 is almost thirty USD today. Given that it seems like *most* of the information is in the Pines book (which is both full of useful info AND on sale this week), I'd rather spend that money on nursery stock than enriching speculators.

What I'd like most of all would be to be able to pay $6-8/issue of Bonsai Today for a digital copy from the folks who own the publication rights (I assume that's Stone Mountain?).
 

theone420

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Well I have ordered the Master Series book from Stone Lantern and waiting for it to arrive. I did find some copies of the magazine volumes 1-20 as well. They look like photocopies of the magazines in PDF format. I figured since I purchased the master book I would compare the book to the copies to see if anything was lost or added in translation. I will post my findings when I finish my reading assignment.??
 

Adair M

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Ah. “Lost in translation”.

The irony.

The article in the Masters Series book, is a true copy of the BT 20 article.

BUT...

The Bonsai Today vol 20 article is a translated version from Spanish to English. The Spanish version was translated from Japanese to Spanish.

So, it is very likely that there are translation differences between what was the original version published in Japanese and the current version that we have in English.
 

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