Bonsai Tonight post on akadama and soil mixtures

[Anthony]

What if ?

Guy wonders into a nurserry and sees a 2 foot tall Shimpaku.
Price 5000.00
But it is in a gravel based soil, and too heavy to easily move
and ultimately repot.

He settles for a liftable other at 500.00

A friend of the nursery owner suggests a means to lighten the weight.
Get more sales.

Reality -
Clay encourages thick non-feeder roots.
Sand encourages fine feeder roots.

Volcanic sand has Alkalis and alkalines, and unless a tree or shrub has
evolved to grow in it, the plant will sicken.
Basic plant biology.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

How about it Sorce are you up for the opportunity to expand your horizons?

What is it that we are looking to discover with this experiment?

I respect you.

But you misunderstood my post.

What do you think it means?
Why did I post that?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

The other half wasn't in good fresh soil.
So the fact is, we can never know what that half would be, of it was in "good fresh soil", I was thinking Walter's mix, but don't want to start name fighting, so "good fresh soil" is simply that, something else that isn't apl.

So what were left with, is the knowledge that apl is good as compared to the poor soil in the other half.

Results aren't lying.

But what are they actually telling us?

Are they telling us Walter's soil, or any other modern substrate is poor?

No.

They are telling is that tree desperately needed a Repot.

Uh...lol.... we're doing Bonsai, the point is to use good soil that promotes healthy Roots.

Lol!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

In the old west y'all would shoot someone in the back!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I don't want those "non lying" results to scare someone into spending money or time on something that they don't need.

Source Modern Substrate that is inexpensive and non time consuming.

That is the proper message.

If I save one person $5 dollars that could be the same $5 that buys the blanket that saves their child's life in a car wreck next winter.

If I can keep someone from smashing lava in their driveway, and poking an eye out, I served my purpose.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Sorce, we do know what the second half will look like when in good soil

Absolutely.

This is how we know the photo is apples to oranges.

An infomercial jarring.

Don't let that false jarring make you do something stupid is all I'm Saying.

Sorce

 

[Sekibonsai]

Sand does one thing- takes up space. Maybe it is falling out of your vagina.

Mediocre materials will generally yield similar results.

Never say "never". As I have already said- there are hundreds of examples out there on one side being cleaned and then the other. Your discussions are literal walking list of logical fallacies.

 

[Arlithrien]

The soil discussion will generally be vigorous, with varied strong opinions. It’s a bit like arguing over religion. Most are born into their religion, some convert others are agnostic. Is there a clear winner, or best religion?

Regarding my soil journey, I’ve tried lots of things. Some cheap, some heavy, some easy to source and some difficult. In my earlier years I used more organic, pine bark, peat, etc. Largely because I had no teacher, I read what I could in books and tried it out. About 12 years ago, I started working with Boon, and found he had very strong feelings about soil, and how it contributed to tree health. I also found he was rather inflexible about his soil opinions. Some modification is particle size, ratios of component for conifer vs deciduous and local weather conditions. But the principle remains, therefore the term Boon mix. In fairness, I now use the Clay King mix Jonas sells, and cut it with pumice. Works well for me.

It is a personal journey. Find someone in your community you respect, who has done bonsai for a while, and has healthy trees.

The most compelling information I have is shown in the picture below. Often when Boon is working with a tree new to him, in soil other than Boon mix, he bare roots 1/2 of the tree during the first repot, the other half at next repot. Bare root half then goes into Boon mix. At the time of the second repot, tree comes out of the pot, and roots examined. In the picture below, roots that are vigorous, fresh and healthy were in Boon mix, the other half in old soil. After I saw this the first time, I was stuck by how dramatic the results were. I now see this with my trees, and for that reason this is what I use. View attachment 299139

The problem with the religion analogy is that soil is not so subjective. It's something that can be much more easily proven with experimentation. I suppose the topic could become complicated if it turned out that many of the popular soil components perform similarly enough to not really matter.

I read an article that stated that it's not the individual components themselves that make a mix special but what properties they offer. Drainage, aeration, ability to hold water and nutrients within. You can achieve those properties with numerous different components, it's all about finding which ones work best together I would assume.

 

[River's Edge]

What is it that we are looking to discover with this experiment?

I respect you.

But you misunderstood my post.

What do you think it means?

Why did I post that?

Sorce
[/QUOTE]
Y

Yes, but what they tell us is good fresh soil is better than bad old soil

I think it means you stated just one possible observation, one should also examine the root structure after removing the soil beyond the obvious and surface appearance! Those who have gone beyond the simple surface observation and finished these repots, clearly observed the differences and stated so from their experience. Further experience illustrates the root formation with " old " APL compared to " old " soil.

If that step was taken or experienced by yourself then I feel you would not have made the comment. " we don't know"

I'm saying nothing
Agreed!
Stating only one aspect of a situation leaves the listener in the dark. I would further suggest that clarifying your remarks with specifics in the beginning would be less likely to be misunderstood. Using the term fresh soil means nothing to the reader, obtuse!


If you tried the experiment you would be able to compare performance of soil mixes that are both fresh and judged over the same time period.
Valuable information for bonsai purposes and worth sharing.

 

[Sekibonsai]

The problem with the religion analogy is that soil is not so subjective. It's something that can be much more easily proven with experimentation. I suppose the topic could become complicated if it turned out that many of the popular soil components perform similarly enough to not really matter.

I read an article that stated that it's not the individual components themselves that make a mix special but what properties they offer. Drainage, aeration, ability to hold water and nutrients within. You can achieve those properties with numerous different components, it's all about finding which ones work best together I would assume.

Can't go wrong with the Holy Trinity...

 

[Lazylightningny]

Are they telling us Walter's soil, or any other modern substrate is poor?

I'd be interested to know what Walter uses and in what proportions. In the articles I've read, he just states "inorganic substrate."

 

[Arlithrien]

Can't go wrong with the Holy Trinity...

Well I guess that settles it then. Better close up this subforum since there's no more discussion to be had.

 

[Lazylightningny]

Another interesting thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that pumice also breaks down. I don't know if it's the roots that do it, or the freeze/thaw cycle, but my pumice frequently breaks down into little slivers.

 

[Walter Pall]

I'd be interested to know what Walter uses and in what proportions. In the articles I've read, he just states "inorganic substrate."

Substrates: Good substrate material must: be of equal particle size, have the ability to absorb water and release it back, have no fine particle organic material, must not decompose easily, be as lightweight as possible when dry, preferably inexpensive and should have an aesthetically pleasing appearance. This would then be: lava, pumice, baked loam, Turface, zeolite, Chabasai (a type of zeolite), coconut pieces, bark pieces, Styrofoam pieces (no joke) and a few more which you can find yourself if you have understood the principles. Please note: Some of these materials may not be available in your area.

Normal akadama is questionable as a good substrate as it inevitably decomposes, especially when exposed to winter frost. It can become deadly loam in the pot, choking the flow of water and air into the soil. This is especially true for trees which are only rarely repotted, like collected conifers and old bonsai in general.

Substrates which are not useful: soil, compost, stones, sand etc. Trees grow in sand and flower soil, of course, but it is not an optimal growing medium for health in bonsai culture.
All substrates can be mixed according to your liking and it makes almost no difference. They can also be recycled and used again, but make certain to sift and clean any recycled materials as needed.

There is no such thing as an 'ideal bonsai substrate'. There are in fact thousands of ideal substrates. I believe that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU USE AND IN WHAT MIXTURE as long as it is a modern substrate.

Since there is no soil in modern substrates there is very little alive in them. They dry out easily and one must water several times a day when it is hot, especially if you have used pure inorganics. Therefore I add rough peat in addition to the previously mentioned substrates. This is the kind of peat that is harvested in bogs and comes in its natural coarse form. Make certain not to use fine particle peat/sphagnum moss, even if the package says “dust free” as the particles will be too small. If you cannot find the correct type of peat, use small bark bits without dust particles, or cut coconut fibers. These organic components should comprise 15-20 % of the overall volume, a bit less with conifers, olives and such, and a bit more with small trees and azaleas.

These organic materials are good for keeping humidity higher in the substrate and for supporting the colonization of beneficial microbial life in the soil composition. Research also seems to indicate that peat moss has plant hormones which are good for trees. These are organic materials which would normally have no business being in a bonsai substrate, but the ones mentioned take five years to decompose. You have to consider this when planning your repotting schedules. The organic material should also be sieved out of any substrate that is being recycled.

 

[LanceMac10]

I'd be interested to know what Walter uses and in what proportions. In the articles I've read, he just states "inorganic substrate."

couldn't copy/paste fast enough.....

 

[Lazylightningny]

There is no such thing as an 'ideal bonsai substrate'. There are in fact thousands of ideal substrates. I believe that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU USE AND IN WHAT MIXTURE as long as it is a modern substrate.

I can appreciate this, because there are some who use straight lava to pot up their trees, but I've normally only heard of this for newly collected material.

 

[Sekibonsai]

Substrates: Good substrate material must: be of equal particle size, have the ability to absorb water and release it back, have no fine particle organic material, must not decompose easily, be as lightweight as possible when dry, preferably inexpensive and should have an aesthetically pleasing appearance. This would then be: lava, pumice, baked loam, Turface, zeolite, Chabasai (a type of zeolite), coconut pieces, bark pieces, Styrofoam pieces (no joke) and a few more which you can find yourself if you have understood the principles. Please note: Some of these materials may not be available in your area.

Normal akadama is questionable as a good substrate as it inevitably decomposes, especially when exposed to winter frost. It can become deadly loam in the pot, choking the flow of water and air into the soil. This is especially true for trees which are only rarely repotted, like collected conifers and old bonsai in general.

Substrates which are not useful: soil, compost, stones, sand etc. Trees grow in sand and flower soil, of course, but it is not an optimal growing medium for health in bonsai culture.
All substrates can be mixed according to your liking and it makes almost no difference. They can also be recycled and used again, but make certain to sift and clean any recycled materials as needed.

There is no such thing as an 'ideal bonsai substrate'. There are in fact thousands of ideal substrates. I believe that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU USE AND IN WHAT MIXTURE as long as it is a modern substrate.

Since there is no soil in modern substrates there is very little alive in them. They dry out easily and one must water several times a day when it is hot, especially if you have used pure inorganics. Therefore I add rough peat in addition to the previously mentioned substrates. This is the kind of peat that is harvested in bogs and comes in its natural coarse form. Make certain not to use fine particle peat/sphagnum moss, even if the package says “dust free” as the particles will be too small. If you cannot find the correct type of peat, use small bark bits without dust particles, or cut coconut fibers. These organic components should comprise 15-20 % of the overall volume, a bit less with conifers, olives and such, and a bit more with small trees and azaleas.

These organic materials are good for keeping humidity higher in the substrate and for supporting the colonization of beneficial microbial life in the soil composition. Research also seems to indicate that peat moss has plant hormones which are good for trees. These are organic materials which would normally have no business being in a bonsai substrate, but the ones mentioned take five years to decompose. You have to consider this when planning your repotting schedules. The organic material should also be sieved out of any substrate that is being recycled.

If you see some of the soil being used in less than developed countries which subsequently yield exceptional bonsai you will see the truth - you can grow trees in just about anything IF you can effectively manage a water-air-nutrient balance.

Legend has it that back in the day China wanted to donate numerous penjing to us but the USDA refused to budge on them being bare-rooted. The Chinese of course balked as they were planted in heavy clay soil. They went to Canada instead- Montreal I think? Luckily the USDA got their head out of their butts by 1976 when the Japanese donated to the National Arboretum. Point being, Chinese "apprentices" spend their first years just learning how to water... so that their penjing thrive.

 

[Walter Pall]

Randy Knight is by far the most successful collector of high quaitiy trees in the world. He has collected thousands of incredibly good old trees. Every single one he planted in PURE pumice. Nothing else. And they are doing very well. Pumice because he sits on it - it is the local soil in St. Helens. Could have also been lava or turface or anything.

 

[Lazylightningny]

Randy Knight is by far the most successful collector of high quaitiy trees in the world. He has collected thousands of incredibly good old trees. Every single one he planted in PURE pumice. Nothing else. And they are doing very well. Pumice because he sits on it - it is the local soil in St. Helens. Could have also been lava or turface or anything.

p.s., have you ever flown over Mt. St. Helens? Half the mountain is missing. It's an incredible sight.

 

[River's Edge]

but the ones mentioned take five years to decompose. You have to consider this when planning your repotting schedules. The organic material should also be sieved out of any substrate that is being recycled.

This concept applies to quality Akadama and it requires the same consideration of quality organic material due to the breakdown. So watering and repotting is impacted! Quality Akadama can easily last seven or eight years in milder climates with appropriate watering.
Not arguing Walter just pointing out that the principle is the same with other valued components. Valued for PH and CEC contributions among others.