Bought a JBP from Round valley nursery. Need input on the planting angle

Benny w

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Want the communitys input on the planting angle of this jbp as stated in the title. Unfortunately because of work I could only meet up with my club in the last hour of touring this awesome private nursery but fortunately since I work 10 minutes from this jem i was still able to join the group. Didnt want to walk away empty handed that day or waste Mr. Clark's time so this tree was sort of a quick pick. If anybody has ever been there one could spend a half a day easy looking at awesome material. I thought I had a plan for this tree but the branches arnt in the correct position which could be corrected if I wanted to graft the first and 2nd branches ( informal upright was my plan). Before I do anything drastic and considering this is my first pine I want to ask the community what they would do ( other than sell it lol) if this was their tree. September is the first club meeting of the year here in good ol Fresno Ca and have help in that regard as well.
 

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Benny w

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I am not a real fan of how trunk leans back. Could lean it further maybe and make a semi cascade....
 

Smoke

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I think I will be conducting the first demo of the year on choosing branches Sept. 14. I would be very happy in looking the plant over and helping you with ideas. I have been to Bill Clark's nursery many times and have even worked there on weekends making pines for him to sell when he goes out of town.
 

Ryceman3

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Quickly based on the images you gave I like the yellow line below for the front.
256431
I think there is a branch at the back where the red mark is ... I'd be looking to leave this as a sacrifice to build girth at the base while you get the rest developing. I think it has plenty of options - nice material!
Having said all that, Smoke's post above is by far the better option if you can hang out until September (which I think you should). Nothing like seeing a tree in 3D to formulate a plan for direction with any kind of confidence. Sometimes what seems to work on a photo isn't so hot in real life.
Good luck with it.
🍺
 

Benny w

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So far smoke and ryceman3 I thank you guys for the feedback.
I think I will be conducting the first demo of the year on choosing branches Sept. 14. I would be very happy in looking the plant over and helping you with ideas. I have been to Bill Clark's nursery many times and have even worked there on weekends making pines for him to sell when he goes out of town.
Thank you for this info and where will you be conducting the Demo?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Similar to above, I’d probably proceed like this:
BE7A5A20-67C4-4D68-8B54-AC07220978B5.jpeg
Let the sacrifice branch grow a few years, and also let a shoot “run” on each wired branch to grow out some of those nasty wire scars on the trunk.
 

Adair M

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Similar to above, I’d probably proceed like this:
View attachment 256466
Let the sacrifice branch grow a few years, and also let a shoot “run” on each wired branch to grow out some of those nasty wire scars on the trunk.
Of all the ideas, I like BVF’s the best.

But I seriously doubt those wire scars will ever change from being a serious flaw into an attractive “feature”.

This tree is one I would never buy.

The whole “school” if intentionally scarring trunks to promote girth and bark character is flawed at the core. JBP naturally put on good trunks and are prized for their bark. This scarring method is not necessary, and is simply a way to trick an uninformed buyer into purchasing something they “think” a bonsai should look like.

Oh, I know what you’re thinking: “But the Japanese do it!” Yes, they do. They grow JWP grafted on JBP stock by the thousands, and wire up the JBP stock and leave the wire in. But, they sell them cheap! They sell them to be gifts, like we would buy a bottle of wine to give to the host at a party.

This is not a style to be copied. It is one to be avoided!

The Italians make great cars: Ferrari and Lamborghini’s. They also make Fiats.

Choose well.
 

Benny w

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Of all the ideas, I like BVF’s the best.

But I seriously doubt those wire scars will ever change from being a serious flaw into an attractive “feature”.

This tree is one I would never buy.

The whole “school” if intentionally scarring trunks to promote girth and bark character is flawed at the core. JBP naturally put on good trunks and are prized for their bark. This scarring method is not necessary, and is simply a way to trick an uninformed buyer into purchasing something they “think” a bonsai should look like.

Oh, I know what you’re thinking: “But the Japanese do it!” Yes, they do. They grow JWP grafted on JBP stock by the thousands, and wire up the JBP stock and leave the wire in. But, they sell them cheap! They sell them to be gifts, like we would buy a bottle of wine to give to the host at a party.

This is not a style to be copied. It is one to be avoided!

The Italians make great cars: Ferrari and Lamborghini’s. They also make Fiats.

Choose well.
You said "they sell them cheap" and it sounds like you gotta guy. If your guy sells them cheaper than my guy maybe we can work out some kind of deal?
 

Adair M

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You said "they sell them cheap" and it sounds like you gotta guy. If your guy sells them cheaper than my guy maybe we can work out some kind of deal?
In Japan, they’re cheap.

So cheap, some of the growers are finding it’s cheaper to plow them under rather than harvest them!

In the US, they’re expensive. All the quarantine regulations and procedures that are required to import anything from Japan runs the price up considerably!

And, because the “cost” is high, people associate that with “quality”. So, they see these things, with all the scars, see the price tag, and falsely assume the scarring is a positive attribute, and so that’s how this trend got started.
 

Adair M

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Here is a grafted JWP on JBP stock, where the wire was left in. It’s about 30 years old. There is bad reverse taper right at the nebari that I try to hide by potting it low, and with moss. But, still... the wire scars on this side don’t look too bad, after 30 years. The other side, they’re still pretty bad.

9042642E-DA30-4A43-82B7-464AE0B19F8E.jpeg

The back side:

23E792B2-2DA5-4AF8-9B50-EEB010839A57.jpeg
 

Ryceman3

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But, still... the wire scars on this side don’t look too bad, after 30 years. The other side, they’re still pretty bad.
This bit is interesting to me. I don't associate wire marks/scarring with quality but I was under the impression that with trees that have bark that matures in a rough and plated fashion (like JBP) that scarring, although ideally avoided, would blend in to the tree as it matured. Essentially, the bark would overgrow and hide any marks within 5 years or so. I guess maybe not!?!?
 

Smoke

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This bit is interesting to me. I don't associate wire marks/scarring with quality but I was under the impression that with trees that have bark that matures in a rough and plated fashion (like JBP) that scarring, although ideally avoided, would blend in to the tree as it matured. Essentially, the bark would overgrow and hide any marks within 5 years or so. I guess maybe not!?!?
They do. If you have a pine older that 20 years with showing wire scars, its a shitty pine. I have pines less than 10 years old that don't really show scars anymore.
 

Smoke

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Ben will come to my house soon and he can see for himself from the pines I have, many from Bill Clark. He can make up his own mind about how his pine will fare. There are many tricks for helping wire scars disappear on pines while they grow over the wire. Like anything in bonsai, its knowing what to do, how to do it, and when.
 

Adair M

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This bit is interesting to me. I don't associate wire marks/scarring with quality but I was under the impression that with trees that have bark that matures in a rough and plated fashion (like JBP) that scarring, although ideally avoided, would blend in to the tree as it matured. Essentially, the bark would overgrow and hide any marks within 5 years or so. I guess maybe not!?!?
If you wire a tree, and the wire bites in a little, and you remove the wire, the wire scars will likely heal over. Leaving the wire in permanently is the problem.

I have seen some very old JWP on JBP grafted trees. Much older than mine. You can still see the spiral wire scars.

I’d be interested in seeing Smoke’s tricks for removing the scars.

But really, JBP naturally barks up very nicely all on its own, there’s no need for artificial means. Some say certain strains make better bark than others. I’m not even talking about the “cork bark” oddities. Trees from the Mikawa region have nice bark, so often growers will prefer to use seed from Mikawa trees.
 

Ryceman3

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If you wire a tree, and the wire bites in a little, and you remove the wire, the wire scars will likely heal over. Leaving the wire in permanently is the problem.
Ahhh... this may be where my naive mind missed the point, I was thinking the wire had been removed! If that is not the case then the bit that becomes interesting to me is
“...seeing Smoke’s tricks for removing scars
I’m always looking for somebody to learn something from, and the way I see it is that if you can manage the scarring then that is a pretty nice piece of raw stock.
Thanks for the reply.
👍
 

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