Branch cut back or defoliation for back budding?

my nellie

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I have a small Ficus salicaria (it's willow leaf ficus '89 I've been told). I cultivate it outside in spring & summer and move it inside under light for the winter. Each year when moved it sheds all its leaves and then new leaves are growing but only at the tips of branches.
Two years ago I defoliated late spring in order to get back budding but the tree failed to do so.
So now I wonder perhaps I would better cut the branches back in order to achieve the desired result in back budding.
I appreciate any suggestions.
 

bonhe

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my Nellie:
Two years ago I defoliated late spring in order to get back budding but the tree failed to do so.
Do you remember if the branches were in upright, slanting or horizontal positions?
What was the tree health status right before it was defoliated and after that?


So now I wonder perhaps I would better cut the branches back in order to achieve the desired result in back budding.
I think so.
Bonhe
 

Mellow Mullet

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Alexandra,

I have the same ficus, but it is a large forest group, it can be seen it the thread here: http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i-likus-the-ficus-part-ii.19612/. I care for mine much the same as you, outside most all the time, only brought in when it gets really cold. Towards the end of winter, a lot of the leaves fall off (maybe 50- 75 %) and that is when I trim and, sometimes, wire. I get the best back budding when I trim the ends of the branches. When I do this I will cut each tip all the way back to two leaves and sometimes if it has grown too long, no leaves at all. After doing this, it will explode with growth all over. Just rub the buds off that appear where you don't want them. You can defoliate two or three times each summer. I cut the ends when I do this also, if you don't the branch will just keep getting longer with little ramification.

Also, ficus like a lot of fertilizer, I use miracle grow or whatever is similar (on sale), full strength, once a week, all during the growing season and randomly during winter. Trim it, feed it, keep it damp, and give it lots of sunlight and it will grow like crazy.

Oh, just a thought, when was the last time that you repotted it? Ficus can completely fill a pot with roots in one season. If the roots have little room to grow, the top won't grow much either.

Hope it helps.

John
 

my nellie

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Bonhe, thank you for your response!
... ...
Do you remember if the branches were in upright, slanting or horizontal positions?
The branches were wired to a more or less horizontal position with some curves, except those consisting the apex which were wired upright

What was the tree health status right before it was defoliated and after that?
The tree was growing very well and it did continue to grow after defoliation, but it grew only from the tips of branches.
 

my nellie

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Bohne, thank you for your reply.
... ...Do you remember if the branches were in upright, slanting or horizontal positions?
The branches were wired to a more or less horizontal position with a slight bending upwards. The branches at the apex were facing upward.

What was the tree health status right before it was defoliated and after that?
Was growing healthy and after defoliation it continued its growth but only from the end of branches and on.
 

my nellie

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Hello John, thank you too!
... ...Towards the end of winter, a lot of the leaves fall off (maybe 50- 75 %)... ...
Mine it just gets self-defoliated every year at the beginning of winter :)

I get the best back budding when I trim the ends of the branches. When I do this I will cut each tip all the way back to two leaves and sometimes if it has grown too long, no leaves at all. After doing this, it will explode with growth all over. ... ...
This time I will act like you do in hopes of getting similar results.
Mrs. Dorothy Schmidtz from California who is growing great Ficus trees had replied at IBC that defoliation needs to be done at the correct time, otherwise no results in terms of ramification can be seen. I remember defoliating my little tree at the beginning of summer.....


I cut the ends when I do this also, if you don't the branch will just keep getting longer with little ramification.
This is the case with mine, long branches, no ramification, green at the tips.

Also, ficus like a lot of fertilizer,... ...
I have two small plastic fertilizer canisters into the pot filled with organic slow release pelets and it gets food with water

Oh, just a thought, when was the last time that you repotted it? Ficus can completely fill a pot with roots in one season. If the roots have little room to grow, the top won't grow much either.
It was repotted last summer. But it was growing in a bigger pot and now it's into a smaller one.
I read somewhere here at B-Nut that this species grows a lot of roots if potted into a shallow but wide pot.
Perhaps I should change the pot again? What would you suggest?


Hope it helps.
Very much, indeed!
 

sorce

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This is the tree in question (last September)

Nice trunk!

I think the "appropriate time" to defoliate would be right when you cut the branches back!

I'm waiting to hear from Bohne of the branch angles!

If I was you, I'd cut all the branches back to the last green mid summer.

Defoliation does not directly cause backbudding in any way.
It merely brings light to the inner parts, assisting interior budding when cut back, and keeping those new shoots viable.

I used to defoliate my tropicals a lot.

Since I stopped....I'm actually getting somewhere!

Sorce
 

my nellie

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Thank you for your interest Sorce!
... ...I'm waiting to hear from Bohne of the branch angles!
Me too. I am curious what he has in mind regarding the angles in connection to back budding.

If I was you, I'd cut all the branches back to the last green mid summer.
But the last green is only at the end of branches. If I cut back where no green exists (no leaves at all like John said above)?

Since I stopped....I'm actually getting somewhere!
I intend to do the same. Defoliation is for certain a stress to the trees and I am not in favor except for an obvious reason (ramification or other)



PS : looks like I had missed my post #4 so I posted second time post #6. I apologize.
 
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This is the simple, non-technical answer:
Cutting back will cause more back budding than defoliating will cause. Typically, you defoliate so that you get light and air to interior branching and/or to get a second flush of growth/new leaves. Defoliating will cause back budding when dormant buds are stimulated by heat/light. Keep in mind that a tree will produce only what is necessary and will rely on the strongest areas of growth - branch tips.
Cutting back will cause dormant buds to grow because the tree needs foliage and you have removed the strongest areas of growth.
 

Mellow Mullet

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"It was repotted last summer. But it was growing in a bigger pot and now it's into a smaller one.
I read somewhere here at B-Nut that this species grows a lot of roots if potted into a shallow but wide pot.
Perhaps I should change the pot again? What would you suggest?"

It will grow a lot of roots in any container you plant it in. I have some cuttings that I struck last year that have already filled a gallon size nursery canwith roots. A large shallow pot would be good to keep the root mass thin while you are developing it. If it were me I would put it in a larger pot to give it room to grow while you are creating branches. It would develop faster.

John
 

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I agree with Don. In order of backbudding:

(1) Reducing terminal leaves on a branch will trigger minor backbudding
(2) Defoliating a branch will trigger more backbudding
(3) Cutting back a branch will trigger most backbudding

This is assuming that you are treating the entire tree equally. For example if you defoliate the top half of the tree, but leave the lower half alone, you will simply transfer a lot of the strength of the tree to the lower branches, and the backbudding on the upper half will be weaker/less profuse than if you did the entire tree.

Note also that backbudding is a function of the strength of the tree - and the conditions in which it is growing. One of my ficus I defoliate every spring, and it doesn't miss a beat. If a tree is in development, I am focused more on branch structure and girth than ramification, so I will defoliate every other year, or skip a year if the tree has just been repotted in order to let it grow strong. It is really important to give them enough sun - a ficus in full sun grows compact thick growth, while if it is in weak sun it will throw open, leggy growth.

Let me also add an unrelated comment about ficus in the fall/winter. I have ficus in my landscaping. They tend to be really touchy about the cold - even above freezing cold if it is accompanied by wind. This winter two of my ficus in an exposed section of my yard have dropped 75% of their leaves... while two others that are more protected still have all of their leaves. None of my ficus bonsai have dropped leaves. Come summer, they will all be solid foliage.
 

my nellie

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... ...Defoliation does not directly cause backbudding in any way.
It merely brings light to the inner parts, assisting interior budding when cut back, and keeping those new shoots viable... ...
... ...Typically, you defoliate so that you get light and air to interior branching and/or to get a second flush of growth/new leaves. Defoliating will cause back budding when dormant buds are stimulated by heat/light... ...
The functioning of defoliation is made now more clear to me. Thanks!

B-Nut, thank you for your interest!
... ... If a tree is in development, I am focused more on branch structure and girth than ramification, so I will defoliate every other year, or skip a year if the tree has just been repotted in order to let it grow strong... ...
My tree is in developement stage and primarily I want to build the branch girth, as you said.
I was reading the new thread by Smoke on Maples and their training and he says that should let the branches grow as long as they wish paying no attention to ramification and then cut back short.
I wonder if I could apply this approach to my Ficus, too.
I do not know a lot about species specific needs and at first glance I would say that this is logical and applicable but I might very well be wrong....



PS : I apologize for any mistakes in use of the language, I hope you can understand me correctly.
 

bonhe

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... ...I'm waiting to hear from Bohne of the branch angles!
Me too. I am curious what he has in mind regarding the angles in connection to back budding.

Hi Source and My Nellie,
The angle of the branch and trunk can affect to the back budding via auxin mechanism. The more horizontal of the branch, the more adventitious buds can arouse from the superior aspect of the branch. You can see it frequently happens at oak, pomegranate, ume, peach, plum.
Bonhe
 

sorce

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Thanks Bonhe!

@my nellie forgive me...your pic saves small, so I had to scribble some.
It seems you have some branches like this.
aviary-image-1485001018373.jpeg
I'd cut them back at red.

Every branch from the trunk should be cut to its first branch and that branch should be left with one bud.

That'll stimulate it the most.

Of course....
Letting it grow an entire year...then cutting it, would help most.

Greece? Cool, I forgot!
Sorry, I was seeing if you have it indoors, but I still don't know!

But if it were mine....
Right now it would be jammed up under my fluorescents like this...aviary-image-1485002285189.jpeg

Guy Wired down to expose all that close to trunk area of the branches you need budding.

Lastly....

Ryan Neil has a thing about defoliating and being punched in the Gut, which helped me stop..
I believe it's in this 3 part series.

All the Pro Critique videos I've found extremely valuable. Extremely!

Sorce
 

my nellie

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Bonhe, thank you for the clarification!

@sorce
Thank you very much for your time and effort! For the video link, too!
Yes, the tree is moved indoors under a T5 Grolux light.
I agree with you, all those videos by great artists' names are valuable. And all this knowledge is free!
 

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I am quite surprised that a cut back and defoliation did not yield any results. In any case, I rarely bother defoliating Willow Leaf Figs as its such a tedious job when their petioles are so small in length and shohin size trees can have possibly up to 1000 leaves. A lot of people advocate just cutting the leaves in half as they will eventually drop off by themselves. I think you will have to let the shoots grow long and strong then cut back hard into old wood in mid-late summer. This will surely result in too much back budding and more than a handful of options to begin styling again. I let shoots extend 10-12 leaves, then cut back to 1-3 (directional pruning). This always results in sufficient back budding along the branches. Then perhaps once a year a good cleanout of old leaves at the junction of new branches can be cut off, and any forks with more than 2 shoots can be reduced. This should give enough sunlight into the interior. Even in my mild winters most of my figs will drop a number of old leaves, completely normal.
 
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