Branch cut back or defoliation for back budding?

[sorce]

Don't believe everything you hear.
http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=18995&hilit=defoliation
If you know what you are doing, defoliation can be a valuable technique.

I can't read Australian!
Lol.

Certainly there are situations where full defoliation will create a whole new set of ramification....

If you know your tree and how it reacts to defoliation in your microclimate at what levels of health.....
It can be a valuable tool.

Sorce

 

[Jeremy]

If I want a Ficus to backbud through defoliation, in my experience you need to cut the growing bud. Otherwise the branch continues to grow and all the leaves you clipped will sporadically set buds that won't grow until you disrupt the flow of auxin. I can see it being ok for deciduous trees as after their dormant spell some/all those new buds will open up.
If I'm really pumping the juice through the Figs during the growing season I could potentially defoliate 4/5 times a year. This seems counter productive to me though, robbing the tree of all its energy and continuously declining its ability to photosensitive. I personally only defoliate to wire them. Cut shoots back to 1-3 leaves, then clip them off and apply wire. They're going to fall eventually anyway. Then the next few cutbacks before wire is ready to come off I leave those 1-3 leaves on until either buds are swelling or shoots have begun extending. Once you've got a shoot at the base of a leaf, all that old leaf is doing is robbing the interior areas of light.

 

[MichaelS]

If I want a Ficus to backbud through defoliation, in my experience you need to cut the growing bud. Otherwise the branch continues to grow and all the leaves you clipped will sporadically set buds that won't grow until you disrupt the flow of auxin.

Agreed and I would go further and say you should always cut off the terminal bud on any defoliated branch.

 

[sorce]

Sorry that deserves a big read.

"Agreed and I would go further and say you should always cut off the terminal bud on any defoliated branch."
MichaelS

Agreed! Super Agreed!

Sorce

 

[my nellie]

I am quite surprised that a cut back and defoliation did not yield any results... ...

No cut back, only defoliation.
Thanks for your input!

 

[my nellie]

Sorry that deserves a big read.

"Agreed and I would go further and say you should always cut off the terminal bud on any defoliated branch."
MichaelS

Agreed! Super Agreed!

Sorce

Yes, of course! This is indispensable I would say.

 

[my nellie]

Well, well, Jan 2019 now.
This is the first year that my Ficus is overwintering outside on its bench on my balcony and it has not shed any leaf!!! Mind you that the 2018-2019 winter is being a heavy one here in Greece!
So, my little tree has experienced as low as 0 C. and the only protection it had was into a frame surrounded by thick clear plastic sheet.


Late last spring it was repotted into a bigger pot and it was fed very very well. That's the reason for the big leaves

 

[Anthony]

Αλεξάνδρα
There are a few willow leaf ficus in the world.

Our local willow leaf is probably also a sub-tropical, but
as tree it also weeps.
Comparing the one from the US to ours. The leaf is tighter
and less graceful.

It also uses very little organic material - soil is 1/9 organic
the rest is silica based 5 mm gravel.
And only 2.5 cm deep bonsai pots.

Glad to see you around and great results.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[my nellie]

@Anthony thank you for your kind words.

 

[Smoke]

Certainly there are situations where full defoliation will create a whole new set of ramification....

Sorce

Absolutely not.

Removing leaves just allows a new set of leaves. Nothing more. You only get what you had. Now if you defoliate , like many people do, and prune away twigs and branch ends to tidy the tree up, you get a false positive feeling that it was the defoliation that added ramification. It was the pruning.

1. Defoliation gives a new set of leaves, most times smaller which can be a benefit for a tree going into an exhibit = new leaves and smaller...yeah!

2. Just pruning the tree will increase ramification, with crappy leaves, unless your tree is pristine all the time.

3. Defoliation and pruning will give you new leaves, smaller leaves and increased ramification as long as the tree is really up for the task, because it severely weakens it to do this.

 

[my nellie]

@Smoke thank you very much for your input, Sir.

 

[sorce]

Absolutely not.

Removing leaves just allows a new set of leaves. Nothing more. You only get what you had. Now if you defoliate , like many people do, and prune away twigs and branch ends to tidy the tree up, you get a false positive feeling that it was the defoliation that added ramification. It was the pruning.

1. Defoliation gives a new set of leaves, most times smaller which can be a benefit for a tree going into an exhibit = new leaves and smaller...yeah!

2. Just pruning the tree will increase ramification, with crappy leaves, unless your tree is pristine all the time.

3. Defoliation and pruning will give you new leaves, smaller leaves and increased ramification as long as the tree is really up for the task, because it severely weakens it to do this.

How old is this? Lol! That last situation...yes!

This "new leaves only" thing.
I have never seen it and I don't believe it exists.
I see branches that may only push one leaf for a while...
But never just a new leaf.

Please understand I am Not being an ass bit trying to understand what we are talking about.

I agree.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

I have a small Ficus salicaria (it's willow leaf ficus '89 I've been told). I cultivate it outside in spring & summer and move it inside under light for the winter. Each year when moved it sheds all its leaves and then new leaves are growing but only at the tips of branches.
Two years ago I defoliated late spring in order to get back budding but the tree failed to do so.
So now I wonder perhaps I would better cut the branches back in order to achieve the desired result in back budding.
I appreciate any suggestions.

All these techniques are dependant on species and timing. Wrong species or wrong timing the tree may not respond.

 

[Smoke]

How old is this? Lol! That last situation...yes!

This "new leaves only" thing.
I have never seen it and I don't believe it exists.
I see branches that may only push one leaf for a while...
But never just a new leaf.

Please understand I am Not being an ass bit trying to understand what we are talking about.

I agree.

Sorce

Maybe be a little more clear on which part you do not understand?

 

[Smoke]

Maybe this will be more clear and easier to understand. Lets talk about maples and elms. Two very common subject for bonsai.



If you defoliate an elm or a maple you should always cut the leaves from the stem. (Petiole) When they are removed the plant will issue a new leaf by forming a bud at the base of the petiole near the twig or branch. It will be a "like for like" situation. Ten leaves on the stem, ten new leaves after defoliation.

On an elm, since it has alternating leaves on the twig removing, pruning, nipping, pinching what ever you wish to call it will cause the tree to make a new terminal. As long as the terminal is not disturbed the tree will continue to push that branch. It will get longer and longer and in the case of elms and maples I have seen them grow 9 feet without a single fork. BUT, as trees grow they need a larger food source and so the tree sends messengers to make a fork. It will do this all on its own. You can artificially induce this behavior by removing the terminal bud, the bud or leaf on the end of the twig.

On an elm, usually this removing of the terminal creates a new direction for the branch and the second one inline will usually fork creating more ramification. The trick is to do this often during the growing season. Not waiting for leaf harden, not waiting for tree harden, not waiting for branch harden. Soon and often, take advantage of the spring push and make as many divisions as you can. Don't wait around for the tree to respond, make the tree respond.

Now on maple, different beast. On this tree we can actually make forks. The tree naturally makes pairs of leaves that alternate by 90 degrees on the stem. But, the tree will usually only have a terminal bud. That bud is the leader of the pack. leave it alone and the branch just keeps on growing. Remove the leaves and the same thing, new bud at the base of the petiole. But if you remove the terminal by pruning, the next buds back will activate and make two more branches. Like at the bottom of my picture. You do that three or four times during the spring push and you can get some wonderful ramification very quickly. Defoliation just won't do the job. You just don't stimulate anything other than replacing leaves, like for like.

 

[sorce]

Smoke Smoke!

I gotta go one back since.....
That original thing didn't mean I believe defoliation makes for full new ramification.

What I meant meant was in some situation...in a far away land like Australia, there may be a well fed tree that will push a full new set of ram, but only if you cut the tips...

Agreed and I would go further and say you should always cut off the terminal bud on any defoliated branch."
MichaelS

Agreed! Super Agreed!

But this is where my confusion lies, and I've had this gripe before with folks who say only leaves can be produced.....

When they are removed the plant will issue a new leaf by forming a bud at the base of the petiole near the twig or branch

For me that bud is already formed, that is what I am referring to as "new ramification".
But also, I have never ONLY defoliated, I always cut terminals so I never get only a leaf.

But my confusion is there..."a bud forms"..
And I have seen that happen on a maple recently...where the big original fattie bud is there, but new little secondary buds also form, seemingly when it is healthy enough to self fork. Is that new little bud the "leaf only" that we speak of?

Because for me, it is always just that one bud already there that makes a leaf, which inevitably becomes a branch..or ramification.

But I am beginning to think a healthier tree will actually throw this leaf alone.

Truth truth....
I suck balls at D trees.

Since you've had me on ignore bout all some 30 elms died, amurs, blah blah...

Until this past summer when I had to hook up an autowater, watered twice as often and for 15 minutes and top and bottom growth exploded.

Nice to hear from you OG triple SOB non SOB triple triple trident flower OG!

Sorce

 

[Smoke]

Smoke Smoke!

I gotta go one back since.....
That original thing didn't mean I believe defoliation makes for full new ramification.

What I meant meant was in some situation...in a far away land like Australia, there may be a well fed tree that will push a full new set of ram, but only if you cut the tips...


But this is where my confusion lies, and I've had this gripe before with folks who say only leaves can be produced.....



For me that bud is already formed, that is what I am referring to as "new ramification".
But also, I have never ONLY defoliated, I always cut terminals so I never get only a leaf.

But my confusion is there..."a bud forms"..
And I have seen that happen on a maple recently...where the big original fattie bud is there, but new little secondary buds also form, seemingly when it is healthy enough to self fork. Is that new little bud the "leaf only" that we speak of?

Because for me, it is always just that one bud already there that makes a leaf, which inevitably becomes a branch..or ramification.

But I am beginning to think a healthier tree will actually throw this leaf alone.

Truth truth....
I suck balls at D trees.

Since you've had me on ignore bout all some 30 elms died, amurs, blah blah...

Until this past summer when I had to hook up an autowater, watered twice as often and for 15 minutes and top and bottom growth exploded.

Nice to hear from you OG triple SOB non SOB triple triple trident flower OG!

Sorce

I have a translator working on this one. I have no idea what you said.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke Smoke!

Truth truth....
I suck balls at D trees.

Sorce

This is bullshit. No one sucks at D trees. You suck at what a lot of people suck at. Too many species of trees to look after and never getting good at any of them. I knew a long time ago that for my weather and climate that only a few trees would really thrive.

Japanese maples, so so.... Tridents, Superman. So I don't have a lot of Palmatums. I would like to have more.
Elms, Superman.
Hornbeam, Pyracantha, Pine and Juniper, equally as good.

There are many species I would love to work with but my climate just won't produce good results. So, I don't work with them and fail. I don't like failing.

 

[Anthony]

Very sensible Al [ @Smoke ],

this why as time goes by, mostly locals will be kept, down here.
Easier on the nerves,

The local willow leaf ficus self defoliates once a year normally
April / May.
Then we just trim to change branch direction.

Looking for the local hackberry [ Celtis i.] which may replace Celtis l.
or Celtis a., or Celtis c.,
No more fridge.
Well Celtis is so much loved, maybe ..................
Jamaica has another Celtis type tool.

Alexandra has a local Celtis as well.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[bonhe]

This "new leaves only" thing.
I have never seen it and I don't believe it exists.
I see branches that may only push one leaf for a while...
But never just a new leaf.



Sorce

I agree with you. That is what the people do for ficus.
For elm, because I never did, I can not say!
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