Brazilian Rain Tree Question

[Gaea's listener]

I just aquired this little cutie for my first tropical bonsai and I'm hoping someone would be able to help me with these questions:

• What type of BRT is it? Samanea saman or Chloroleucon tortum and how to tell the difference? Thank you for the lesson @Leo in N E Illinois, I had no idea there are different species of BRT
• Would it beneficial to transplant the tree at this time to a better soil? It will have to go indoors for the winter and in my experience, plants with poor soil struggle severely over the long Canadian winter, so I was wondering if it's best to put it in something more "breathy"- bonsai soil mix? Right now it's in a nursery pot in potting mix. I just put the plastic pot iside one of my pottery pots for stability
• Do you think this tree really is 4yo? That's what I was told, but seeing some huge cuttings and trees out there, I'm just not sure why this one is so tiny. I do like the miniature of it, some of the branches are as thin as a hair, check out these small leaves

Thank you so much in advance to everyone who reponds, and if you own the BRT, please feel free to share the photos and some tips if you'd like.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

It looks like a rooted cutting. It is probably Chloroleucon tortum mainly by the appearance of the bark. If in another 5 years, the bark begins exfoliating, dropping plates of bark, exposing several colors underneath, you definitely have Chloroleucon tortum. If the bark darkens, and become warty and never flakes off in plates, then you have Samanea saman. I'm pretty confident its Chloroleucon tortum

It might be a young 4 years old, especially if it was grown in a cold greenhouse or under lights in Canada. If that cutting came from Florida, at 4 years it could be meter and half tall. So maybe yeah, it could be 4 years old.

These love SUN, HEAT and WATER. They don't need to be hot, but over 25 C in the day is key. Once temps are cooler than 18 C. the growth really slows down. Protect them from temps above 35 C, as above 35 C heat is a problem for most life. (25 C = 77 F) (18C = 64 F) (35 C = 95 F)

All in all Chloroleucon tortum is pretty forgiving of less than ideal conditions. They generally should be repotted early to middle of summer, so they have time to grow new roots before going indoors.

Should you repot? The answer depends on you. Do you have a lot of indoor plants. If you do, you should where possible grow them all in the same potting mix so that whole groups of plants in the same size pots go from wet to dry at the same time. It is difficult if you have 100 houseplants each on their own watering schedule. If you have only a few plants, then having one out of rhythm with the rest is not such a big deal.

If you want you can pot it in bonsai soil. Or you can leave it, its up to you.

There are others like @LanceMac10 who know raintrees far better than I do. If he says something different than my suggestions, go with his advice.

 

[Hartinez]

@LanceMac10 and @Clicio could probably get you dialed in with quality advice.

 

[Gaea's listener]

It looks like a rooted cutting. It is probably Chloroleucon tortum mainly by the appearance of the bark. If in another 5 years, the bark begins exfoliating, dropping plates of bark, exposing several colors underneath, you definitely have Chloroleucon tortum. If the bark darkens, and become warty and never flakes off in plates, then you have Samanea saman. I'm pretty confident its Chloroleucon tortum

It might be a young 4 years old, especially if it was grown in a cold greenhouse or under lights in Canada. If that cutting came from Florida, at 4 years it could be meter and half tall. So maybe yeah, it could be 4 years old.

These love SUN, HEAT and WATER. They don't need to be hot, but over 25 C in the day is key. Once temps are cooler than 18 C. the growth really slows down. Protect them from temps above 35 C, as above 35 C heat is a problem for most life. (25 C = 77 F) (18C = 64 F) (35 C = 95 F)

All in all Chloroleucon tortum is pretty forgiving of less than ideal conditions. They generally should be repotted early to middle of summer, so they have time to grow new roots before going indoors.

Should you repot? The answer depends on you. Do you have a lot of indoor plants. If you do, you should where possible grow them all in the same potting mix so that whole groups of plants in the same size pots go from wet to dry at the same time. It is difficult if you have 100 houseplants each on their own watering schedule. If you have only a few plants, then having one out of rhythm with the rest is not such a big deal.

If you want you can pot it in bonsai soil. Or you can leave it, its up to you.

There are others like @LanceMac10 who know raintrees far better than I do. If he says something different than my suggestions, go with his advice.

great information, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it. I am so excited that you think it may be Chloroleucon Tortum. We will see about the above 25C... The summer this year is so cold! In fact, tonight it's going to be only 8C, I had to take the tropicals indoor for the night.

I do not have 100 tropical trees, but who knows how many houseplants? I refuse to count, lol. I don't mind different schedules, having succulents and water loving plants already means I had to just check with everyone anyways. The question about repotting: Would it be helpful to the plant? I would like this plant to have healthy soil so that the roots don't rot and have plenty of air and also some organic matter to continue growing. I noticed that stagnant energy of the winter months, especially January- February can almost kill many house plants if they don't have a good soil. They also dislike to be repotted in the winter, so perhaps now is still an OK time? On the other hand, I just got the plant, perhaps it's best to just leave it be till spring and see what happens...

 

[Gaea's listener]

@LanceMac10 and @Clicio could probably get you dialed in with quality advice.

@Hartinez thank you for tagging the BRT experts! Much appreciated

 

[Paradox]

I agree with Leo, this is most likely Chloroleucon tortum.
It could be a 4 year old cutting. Seems about the right size for it. However it is hard to judge because we don't know the conditions it was grown under which will effect how fast it grew.

If you are experiencing cold nights already, it really isnt a good time to repot this tree unless you can keep it inside.
The best time to repot BRT is when the nights are fairly warm.
I usually do mine in July.

If you really feel that it should be repotted now, you are going to have to really watch the temperatures.
If you decide to repot, I would keep it indoors if the temperature is going to be below 60 degrees Farenheight.
Otherwise the tree will slow down its growth and wont recover from the repotting as well.

If you have a set up inside where you can put it under a grow light, it would be better for when it is cold.
I keep mine under shop lights with fluorescent daylight bulbs on a timer and they continue to grow for me for most of the winter

These are tropical trees and they dont mind sun and warmth and they really dont like to dry out but they dont like to be sopping wet either. I have mine potted in 2 parts akadama, 1 part pumice and 1 part lava. In the winter I typically water every day or every other day depending on what the soil feels like when I check it.

Here is one of my BRT that I have had for 6 years now. This picture was taken last October while it was in its winter quarters just after I had trimmed it. The second picture is a wider angle of the winter quarters of my tropicals taken a few years ago

 

[LanceMac10]

Looks like a BRT...name changed 3-4 times since I got my first one!

Most likely a cutting, 4 year old sounds reasonable. Better to assume it's raw and be patient. Not really any good reason to repot at that point. Not the "better" time to re-pot in your area as well.

Really adaptable to climates of all types in pot culture. That's going to be key in your climate. Leaf's "reflexive" response to surrounding conditions. Observe and notate the visual clues paired with temps, sun, fert....etc.....

I leave mine out later than most, expose earlier in spring and work the material shortly after. Certainly while monitoring upcoming weather events and respond accordingly. Temporary cover may be needed.

Latest LED tech seems promising and prices might be reasonable. Invest some time in research if you want to create optimum indoor growth.












Almost snowed on Memorial Day this year, but closing in on the most 90+ days in a year.....still a ways off( 7-8 left?)...have to check the record for sub 50's at night, so it's been really cool to boot.......


Brt love hot days and cool nights......

...I find these whitish, "almost" woody shoots really don't take as cuttings.......

.....some cuttings in the 3-5 year range can be seen..... New Years 2017......to today

Have fun and watch out for the thorns!!!

 

[Clicio]

I just aquired this little cutie for my first tropical bonsai and I'm hoping someone would be able to help me with these questions:

• What type of BRT is it? Samanea saman or Chloroleucon tortum and how to tell the difference? Thank you for the lesson @Leo in N E Illinois, I had no idea there are different species of BRT
• Would it beneficial to transplant the tree at this time to a better soil? It will have to go indoors for the winter and in my experience, plants with poor soil struggle severely over the long Canadian winter, so I was wondering if it's best to put it in something more "breathy"- bonsai soil mix? Right now it's in a nursery pot in potting mix. I just put the plastic pot iside one of my pottery pots for stability
• Do you think this tree really is 4yo? That's what I was told, but seeing some huge cuttings and trees out there, I'm just not sure why this one is so tiny. I do like the miniature of it, some of the branches are as thin as a hair, check out these small leaves

Thank you so much in advance to everyone who reponds, and if you own the BRT, please feel free to share the photos and some tips if you'd like.

Hello, looks like Cloroleucum alright.
This species is a native from the place I live in, Southwest of Brazil.
A 4 yo here is at least 4 times bigger than yours, but we are in the tropics, so..
It needs humidity, warm weather, and trimming all year long, but...
Do not leave it in the scorching afternoon sun if the temperature is above 35C. They are not called Brazilian Sun Tree, right? They live under the canopy of higher trees in the coastal Brazilian rain forest.
So, take it inside when the temperature gets to 5C and below, they will do fine when protected.
Good luck!

 

[Gaea's listener]

I agree with Leo, this is most likely Chloroleucon tortum.
It could be a 4 year old cutting. Seems about the right size for it. However it is hard to judge because we don't know the conditions it was grown under which will effect how fast it grew.

If you are experiencing cold nights already, it really isnt a good time to repot this tree unless you can keep it inside.
The best time to repot BRT is when the nights are fairly warm.
I usually do mine in July.

If you really feel that it should be repotted now, you are going to have to really watch the temperatures.
If you decide to repot, I would keep it indoors if the temperature is going to be below 60 degrees Farenheight.
Otherwise the tree will slow down its growth and wont recover from the repotting as well.

If you have a set up inside where you can put it under a grow light, it would be better for when it is cold.
I keep mine under shop lights with fluorescent daylight bulbs on a timer and they continue to grow for me for most of the winter

These are tropical trees and they dont mind sun and warmth and they really dont like to dry out but they dont like to be sopping wet either. I have mine potted in 2 parts akadama, 1 part pumice and 1 part lava. In the winter I typically water every day or every other day depending on what the soil feels like when I check it.

Here is one of my BRT that I have had for 6 years now. This picture was taken last October while it was in its winter quarters just after I had trimmed it. The second picture is a wider angle of the winter quarters of my tropicals taken a few years ago

View attachment 391772 View attachment 391773

Golden tips, thank you so much!
your trees are beautiful, wow, it's hard to imagine that my little baby will ever grow so big, but this tree makes me want to live another 40 years just so I can witness it at that time

 

[Gaea's listener]

Looks like a BRT...name changed 3-4 times since I got my first one!

Most likely a cutting, 4 year old sounds reasonable. Better to assume it's raw and be patient. Not really any good reason to repot at that point. Not the "better" time to re-pot in your area as well.

Really adaptable to climates of all types in pot culture. That's going to be key in your climate. Leaf's "reflexive" response to surrounding conditions. Observe and notate the visual clues paired with temps, sun, fert....etc.....

I leave mine out later than most, expose earlier in spring and work the material shortly after. Certainly while monitoring upcoming weather events and respond accordingly. Temporary cover may be needed.

Latest LED tech seems promising and prices might be reasonable. Invest some time in research if you want to create optimum indoor growth.












Almost snowed on Memorial Day this year, but closing in on the most 90+ days in a year.....still a ways off( 7-8 left?)...have to check the record for sub 50's at night, so it's been really cool to boot.......


Brt love hot days and cool nights......

View attachment 391840 View attachment 391841 ...I find these whitish, "almost" woody shoots really don't take as cuttings.......View attachment 391842

View attachment 391843.....some cuttings in the 3-5 year range can be seen.....View attachment 391846 New Years 2017......to today View attachment 391856 View attachment 391857 View attachment 391858

Have fun and watch out for the thorns!!!

thank you so much for all your invaluable advice and beautiful, inspiring photos. The trees look fantastic, the growth you showed since 2017- wow!
It's been a cooler summer this year, very wet too. We actually had temps drop to 7C several times in July and August, which is unheard off. It's to hear they are doing so well under growth light, it will be a lot of fun to have a tree this winter. I really missed it last winter so decided to change that

 

[Paradox]

Golden tips, thank you so much!
your trees are beautiful, wow, it's hard to imagine that my little baby will ever grow so big, but this tree makes me want to live another 40 years just so I can witness it at that time

Just so you have a reference, my tree is 24 years old and it was originally grown by someone in Florida.
I bought it from him when it was 18 years old

 

[Gaea's listener]

Hello, looks like Cloroleucum alright.
This species is a native from the place I live in, Southwest of Brazil.
A 4 yo here is at least 4 times bigger than yours, but we are in the tropics, so..
It needs humidity, warm weather, and trimming all year long, but...
Do not leave it in the scorching afternoon sun if the temperature is above 35C. They are not called Brazilian Sun Tree, right? They live under the canopy of higher trees in the coastal Brazilian rain forest.
So, take it inside when the temperature gets to 5C and below, they will do fine when protected.
Good luck!

thank you so much for your tips! So cool that you get to know these trees as full grown species in the rain forest. Also, I appreciate the info about where abouts they grow- I figured they must like water bc of their name. We didn't have above 35C this year, but it may happen in the future, it's good to know. It seems that my tree was grown under the grow lights in the green house, because the person I got it from just started to aclimatize them to the outdoor sun. They also think the tree was grown from seed, but I'm not sure. Anyways, it's an exciting adventure

 

[Gaea's listener]

Just so you have a reference, my tree is 24 years old and it was originally grown by someone in Florida.
I bought it from him when it was 18 years old

oh wow, thank you for clarifying about the age, in that case I decided I will have to live another 40 years, there's no other way lol

 

[Gaea's listener]

here's a pot I made for my BRT, you all were right to advice me not to repot it, it grew strongly all winter. I will be repotting sometime in June into a new pot. It is quite big for a small tree but the tree will grow into it for the next few years and since I make pots, I may as well make a nice home for it

 

[Gaea's listener]

update on this BRT-

It repotted excellent within the timeframe you guys suggested, didn't skip a beat and grew vigorously all summer, doubling the size.

It had some leaf disease or insect infestation (leaf minor?)- you can see it a bit in the September photo, but with careful leaf plucking it got cured completely.

Then in the midst of cold winter it suffered a leaf loss, most likely due to the variety of factors:
- location close to the door- cold draft (we had few days of -20 weather)
- close to the window- cold nights and cool glass
- let the soil dry too much

All of these happened at once and the tree dropped almost all the leaves within 2 days, it was quite sad.

Solution: moved it to the warmer part of the sunroom and put the grow light above it, water regularly and it bounced back very quickly. Now I'm allowing it to grow somewhat wild before the spring structural pruning.

However, with this tree, I still need to keep the apical branches under control or they just take over. that's why the lower branches are allowed to grow long, while the top branches I am pruning short continuously. Overall, it is a wonderful tree to grow all year long. Few more years and it will be fit to the pot lol