Breaking Elm Dormancy early?

[Redwood Ryan]

Hi all,


I've got a hideous Chinese Elm (and I mean HIDEOUS) that was given to me as a gift. Being the professional bonsai master that I am (cough cough) I can clearly see the obvious flaws in it. Just check out the way that trunk curves. Isn't it just magnificent? Nope? I agree. Well, I would like to experiment with it a little, as it wouldn't bother me if I killed it as much as it would bother me as much as if it were a $120 tree. I would like to try to bring it out of dormancy early to work on it. It's had its 1000 hours of cold, as suggested by Brent at Evergreen Garden Works. So, I'd like to bring it in and place it under the bright T5 lights. Anyone ever done something like this where they end dormancy on a dormant tree? Good idea or bad idea? Feel free to leave any comments.

WARNING: FUGLY TREE AHEAD:

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bad idea. It will do ok under lights, but then you will lose ground when you take it outside...likely it will shed those leaves and start over again, on an exhausted root system, resulting in weaker growth. You want that first push of growth to be very strong, taking full advantage of that energy stored in the roots, resulting in strong growth, that can in turn, pump up the root system again.

Forcing it inside starts with mediocre growth, which returns less to the roots, then moving it outside creates stress for a tree that has foliage unprepared for the bright sunlight (and yes, there is a huge difference between the T5 lights and even dappled shade). Elms are strong, and you'd likely get away with it...but what could you really gain?

Not sure what work you want to do that requires it to be growing...you can wire and prune now, and repot very soon..3 weeks at most..?

 

[rockm]

I would try to keep this tree dormant as long as possible. We are in for some roller coaster weather from now until April and I'm trying to keep trees dormant now to avoid bringing them inside.

I've had experience with early bud break and indoor growth--it's not a good thing--even under lights. Indoor growth is sappy and mostly useless in design. It is bolt upright, pale and won't produce much backbudding if pruned.

As Brian said, forcing new growth indoors is not the way to to work it and it's not really clear what you want to do to it anyway.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Bad idea. It will do ok under lights, but then you will lose ground when you take it outside...likely it will shed those leaves and start over again, on an exhausted root system, resulting in weaker growth. You want that first push of growth to be very strong, taking full advantage of that energy stored in the roots, resulting in strong growth, that can in turn, pump up the root system again.

Forcing it inside starts with mediocre growth, which returns less to the roots, then moving it outside creates stress for a tree that has foliage unprepared for the bright sunlight (and yes, there is a huge difference between the T5 lights and even dappled shade). Elms are strong, and you'd likely get away with it...but what could you really gain?

Not sure what work you want to do that requires it to be growing...you can wire and prune now, and repot very soon..3 weeks at most..?

Great points Brian, thank you. I really had no other idea in bringing it indoors, just was curious since I'm an indoor guy and have heard of people growing these indoors. What if, I had it growing indoors, then when it was time to bring it outdoors it was placed into the shade instead of the sunlight. Would it still drop leaves? I'm really just curious at this point.

I would try to keep this tree dormant as long as possible. We are in for some roller coaster weather from now until April and I'm trying to keep trees dormant now to avoid bringing them inside.

I've had experience with early bud break and indoor growth--it's not a good thing--even under lights. Indoor growth is sappy and mostly useless in design. It is bolt upright, pale and won't produce much backbudding if pruned.

As Brian said, forcing new growth indoors is not the way to to work it and it's not really clear what you want to do to it anyway.

Rollercoaster weather indeed Rock. Mid 70s here in the Gainesville area today, and I think it'll be in the 60s this whole weekend. This tree, as well as some other outdoor ones, are starting to push buds, and I just have no idea what to do with them at this point....

 

[rockm]

We are forecast to be in the mid to upper twenties on Sunday night. Best thing to do is put trees that haven't broken their buds under mulch and wait. If your trees have visible leaves, bring them inside, then move them back out when it's above freezing--repeat until frost danger is gone in April.

Trees with buds that are "moving" --swelling--are fine outside, as long as the buds haven't begun to unfurl into leaves. Once that happens, the tree loses most of its capacity to withstand freezing=dead tree....

The trick is to keep the roots as cold as possible to prevent them from pushing buds. It's a tricky dance, though, especially with the temps in the 70's...

 

[edprocoat]

Ryan, you gotta go fishing. If you do you will see tons of trees that look just like that one, usually either on a lake that gets shore erosion from summer boat use, or along a river bank or stream where the water has washed away the soil mass and the tree has tumbled towards the water and then survived and grew back up towards the sun. Personally I love the look of the tree just the way it is, but to each his own...


ed

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Ryan, you gotta go fishing. If you do you will see tons of trees that look just like that one, usually either on a lake that gets shore erosion from summer boat use, or along a river bank or stream where the water has washed away the soil mass and the tree has tumbled towards the water and then survived and grew back up towards the sun. Personally I love the look of the tree just the way it is, but to each his own...


ed

Really? Hmm. I guess I've just never seen one like this in nature. Could you post any pictures of trees that resemble something like this hideous monstrosity??

 

[Redwood Ryan]

We are forecast to be in the mid to upper twenties on Sunday night. Best thing to do is put trees that haven't broken their buds under mulch and wait. If your trees have visible leaves, bring them inside, then move them back out when it's above freezing--repeat until frost danger is gone in April.

Trees with buds that are "moving" --swelling--are fine outside, as long as the buds haven't begun to unfurl into leaves. Once that happens, the tree loses most of its capacity to withstand freezing=dead tree....

The trick is to keep the roots as cold as possible to prevent them from pushing buds. It's a tricky dance, though, especially with the temps in the 70's...

Thanks Rock. I was trying to think of a way to keep the roots cold in this 70 degree weather, but haven't come up with anything yet.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks Rock. I was trying to think of a way to keep the roots cold in this 70 degree weather, but haven't come up with anything yet.

Rockm described my winter shelter too...under the benches, against the fence, and mulched in...except this winter, since we did some landscaping in the bonsai garden, and I had to get everything up off the ground....then it just never got cold again except for 2 nights. I was not thrilled about keeping them out all winter, because they are going nuts now. Everything is about a month ahead of where they normally are.

 

[edprocoat]

ed
Really? Hmm. I guess I've just never seen one like this in nature. Could you post any pictures of trees that resemble something like this hideous monstrosity??

I once had a ton of tree pictures, but somehow that folder has been deleted. these are a few I found on flickr with weird bends that remind me of your tree.

Twisted Tree by s.chivers, on Flickr

Twisted Tree #2 by Ian Bramham, on Flickr

Twisted Tree by Jase Wells, on Flickr

Twisted Tree Trunk Teetering Towards Torbay by me'nthedogs, on Flickr

Twisted Tree Baker National Park by Karlstrom Photography, on Flickr

Twisted Tree by Syncharmony, on Flickr

Twisted Scrub Oak Tree, Wrigley Botanical Gardens by Si1very, on Flickr

I could have shown you maybe 50 more that I took on the lakes I fish here in central Fl. if my folder did not disappear on me, that had qualities very similiar to your tree, one in particular from Ohio was at the mouth of a reservoir where the water flowed in on a spit of land, it had once fallen over during a flood I suppose, then it grew back upwards towards the sun and it looked very much like your tree, you gotta get out in nature more.

ed

 

[Kiani]

Maybe I'm missing something, being the noobie that I am, but I think that tree looks beautiful.

 

[fore]

Bad idea. It will do ok under lights, but then you will lose ground when you take it outside...likely it will shed those leaves and start over again, on an exhausted root system, resulting in weaker growth. You want that first push of growth to be very strong, taking full advantage of that energy stored in the roots, resulting in strong growth, that can in turn, pump up the root system again.

Forcing it inside starts with mediocre growth, which returns less to the roots, then moving it outside creates stress for a tree that has foliage unprepared for the bright sunlight (and yes, there is a huge difference between the T5 lights and even dappled shade). Elms are strong, and you'd likely get away with it...but what could you really gain?

Not sure what work you want to do that requires it to be growing...you can wire and prune now, and repot very soon..3 weeks at most..?

Great information Brian and a little late My J. Quince and J.Maple seedlings started pushing out leaves about 3 wks ago from being stored outside in an overwintering hoop house. Crazy winter here too... But anyway, they all have been under a simple 2-40wt fluorescents downstairs in the unfinished basement. (50-60s'F) Now you got me thinking I should follow your suggestion of keeping outside during the daytime, take indoors at night till we have above freezing temps. I also agree, it shouldn't be long now.

I just hope that I don't have "mediocre growth" this year because of this...
Chris

 

[hakulady]

I just joined this forum and I wanted to add that my 60+ year old Chinese elm has visible leaves (almost microscopic). I have a plastic flower house outside that I usually place my bonsais during extremely cold temps (16 the other morning) and if its windy. It protects the trees from frost and wind but the temps are probably the same inside the house as it is outside. Should I bring the elm into the garage if temps drop below freezing again? We just hit 82 degrees yesterday and it looks like the day temps will stay between the 40-60s for the next week or so. No below freezing temps on the horizon. I have a few conifers and one azalea outside at the moment.

My other question is about the potential 'black spot' problem on the elm that seems to happen in the early spring. I hate to have to guess whether it will rain on the tender leaves and bring the elm into the garage. I also don't have the means to protect the tree from rain while keeping it in the fresh air and sunshine. Can you spray the daconil on tender leaves and will that protect against the black spot or do I just try to protect against rain?

 

[mcpesq817]

My other question is about the potential 'black spot' problem on the elm that seems to happen in the early spring. I hate to have to guess whether it will rain on the tender leaves and bring the elm into the garage. I also don't have the means to protect the tree from rain while keeping it in the fresh air and sunshine. Can you spray the daconil on tender leaves and will that protect against the black spot or do I just try to protect against rain?

I had a lot of problems with regular chinese elms and black spot, but really haven't had those problems with the cork bark varieties. So, I've stopped working with the regular elms. When I did have them, I used Daconil, but protecting against rain can be a bit difficult. I always try to avoid spraying the leaves when I water.

 

[hakulady]

I'm not sure which variety of Chinese Elm I have. I'll have to compare the two types online to have a better idea. But I do have to deal with black spot almost every spring and want to try the Daconil. I guess my concern is how soon I can spray it on the new leaves.