Brown tips on Trident leaves, Please help

[Katie0317]

The problem with recommendations is different climate, different soil type, different watering technique, etc, etc. My normal summer is hot and dry but my trees get by on a good soak morning and evening. It took some years to discover what a 'good soak' was though. Only after autopsies on many dead plants I learned that watering may not always reach the centre of the pot. I do water all trees overhead so that also wets leaves and trunks. Whether that's important in itself I can't say.
Misting leaves can cause stoma on leaves to close therefore reducing transpiration of water from the roots so misting may help a tree survive a hot day. I'm much more inclined to make sure the roots have access to plenty of water that can be supplied to the leaves and the tree can then regulate transpiration and self cooling. Not sure how effective misting would be in high humidity conditions.


You describe Florida heat as 'brutal' but I think that may be from a human comfort point of view as you also mention relatively low temperatures. High humidity make it difficult for us to perspire and cool ourselves so it feels hotter than it actually is. Summer temps here are much higher (on the thermometer) but more comfortable. Not sure whether the same factors apply to trees.
I have noted the same thing with regards to rain gauge. I realised that rain hits a leaf and runs down and out, drops onto a lower leaf and runs down and out and so on. For landscape trees we talk about the 'drip line' - literally where water hits the ground after running from leaf to leaf. In the garden that water still hits the ground where the tree's roots are. Our bonsai usually have a canopy that's wider than the pot so the canopy of leaves moves most of the rainwater out and drops it outside the pot. Result = pots stay dry except for heavier rainfalls. Like your teacher I'll still water pots unless we get more than about 1/4 inch of rain.


You've already had good responses on how to defoliate. After the leaf blade is gone the leaf stems fall naturally. Pulling leaf stems off can damage the dormant buds. I generally use the scissors to defoliate.
I rarely defoliate fully. I have 2 aims with defoliation of well established bonsai: allow light to inner leaves and shoots, otherwise most growth occurs on the outer edges and vital inner shoots can die off - take off enough larger, outer leaves to allow light to reach inner leaves; reduce strength of strong branches and encourage weaker ones - defoliate more in the upper canopy and on stronger branches but keep more leaves on weaker ones.
The last time I fully defoliated Japanese maples in summer they ended up with permanent damage from sunburnt bark on major branches. Inner leaves suddenly exposed to strong sun after partial defoliation can also burn but fortunately that's not permanent damage like the bark.


The confined space and different dynamics of pots and potting soil do make a difference for fertilizer. Organic products are rarely strong enough to cause toxicity which is why the others can pile them on without harm to the plants.
We don't have biogold here but I use poultry manure pellets in rotation with liquid fert. I just apply direct to the soil but because I also have controlled release in the soil and use liquid fert every 3-4 weeks I only put a few pellets at a time on a small pot. It does leave a residue so others apply it in a tea bag so the used sludge can be removed easier.

I can't explain the heat in Florida to you. In the summer months it is brutal. Temps close to 100 and higher with high humidity. The farther south you go, the hotter the temps. The interior of the state is hotter than the coasts for obvious reasons.

I got very good advice on how to defoliate and I appreciate your input as well. Thank you. Am going to get a rain gage because we get a lot of rain in the summer but the gage will give us a more accurate picture.

I sent the pics to my teacher and he thought it was a watering issue. Brian's pic with the circles he thought were pest related kept 'speaking' to me fortunately.

You never know when you try to help someone out what will make the difference so it's a gift when you share your experience with others who are inexperienced.

I have Alaskan fish oil and will try it. I've never used it before. I used the liquid bonsai dynagro on Monday so will wait a week to try the fish oil. Am not sure if I should wait longer?

Thank you again for your sharing your experiences with your trees. I'll reread it a few times.

 

[leatherback]

Are you asking to see the tree right now or photos I took a few weeks ago? It doesn't look that different to me now.

either or. Just like to see the whole tree

 

[Katie0317]

Shheeet. I just went out to water and shook the tree and found some more spider mites! I ordered a product called Earth's Ally insect control. The bonsai nursery uses this before they have a problem on trees.
I used neem oil again and hope that does the job.

 

[Katie0317]

either or. Just like to see the whole tree

either or. Just like to see the whole tree

These were shot this morning after I removed 200 leaves. Looks a little shaggy but I'll clean it up. I honestly get confused on which is the front and which is the back. It has no scars that stand out. The trunk is just under 6 inches tall. Front first, back second.

 

[leatherback]

I honestly get confused on which is the front and which is the back. It has no scars that

Nice little tree! Thank you!

If you cannot decide, take a look at the top of the tree and pick the side where the top comes towards the viewer. Also, look at the roots, and choose the most pleasing nebari. Lastly, you can just the first branches as a guide. Choose the side where the branches come towards you like the embrace of an old friend.

 

[Katie0317]

That's a great way to determine the front and the back! I've never heard that before. I've just been using the way it was facing when I bought it as the front. I'll take another look but I'm guessing they had it facing according to at least some of your criteria. I like that though, thanks for sharing.

I learned a lot from this case of spider mites. How to defoliate, fertilize and an interesting way to determine the front of a bonsai tree. Thanks all...

Btw, this is the preventative that the nursery uses once a month in the summer to prevent all pests. Organic and prevents over 30 pests, including spider mites, aphids, white flies and lots more. Called Bonide 6556. The other product I listed is for trees that have already been infested.

 

[Katie0317]

The pests are dead on my maple but I still have a few leaves with brown edges`. We've had an inordinate amount of rain this summer and I haven't gotten a rain gauge yet.

On an older thread on tridents I found this posted by @Stan Kengai :

Leaf tips turning brown like this are usually an indication of overwatering. And overwatering can also inhibit the uptake of nutrient. Controlling watering should take care of both symptoms.

That will be the end of the it I believe. I feel certain that's the issue remaining. Am hoping it dries out without any permanent root damage.

Thank you again for the help.

 

[Shibui]

Brown leaf edges are dead. They won't turn back to green however the remainder of the leaf is still green so still feeding the tree.
If you can't stand brown edges you can defoliate.
Over watering can compromise roots and cause brown edges. This is essentially because the sick roots cannot take up water even though the soil is wet. When the roots cannot take up water the tree dehydrates and leaf edges will die.
Overwatering is not the only cause of brown edges. Dehydration from not enough water will do exactly the same thing and it only takes a short time in dry soil on a hot day to cause some burn. Sometimes the soil does not even need to be dry. On hot days plants use water to cool themselves - evaporative aircon - but when temps exceed the capacity for cooling leaves will still burn despite enough water. Hot windy days will do this to most maples. Too much sun will do this to many maples.
Far more maples are affected by too little water than too much, especially in small pots where there's limited water storage for a start. Be very careful assuming too much water and cutting back.

I think it was noted earlier that experienced shohin growers accept that many small maple bonsai will have some degree of leaf burn over summer despite the best of care.

 

[Katie0317]

Thank you Shibui. I respect that you're experienced with Trident maples. I hope you can respect that I'm not. This is a learning experience for me. In the environment we live in tropical bonsai are simply 'easier' to grow it seems, while in northern states deciduous trees are more common and probably easier to grow there.

I think this tree got too much water when my husband began watering in the afternoons. A lot of our tropical bonsai need to be watered twice a day but we didn't water the trident this afternoon after reading what you'd had to say yesterday and what I'd read on the day before.

It most definitely hasn't gotten soaked but when I press my fingertips lightly towards the center of the tree and hold them there it's too moist in the late afternoon after only being watered in the early morning. I tested it this way today and yesterday. Will the maple dry out on its own? I accept that it may go through stages of looking ratty as you or someone else said but I just want to be certain it's able to dry out.

I took it out of full sun and put it under the shade sail about noon today. I was leaving the house and seeing it in the blazing sun with some of the tropicals...I moved it. Late in the afternoon it was still too moist after just the morning watering.

So I'm guessing now I should just leave it in full sun all day until it dries out, but I don't want to 'fry it' with too much sun. I know I'm not overwatering in the morning.

Thank you again for your insight.

 

[Shibui]

Good luck with the trident.
As you say, tropicals are far easier to grow in tropical area but we all seem to want things we can't have so many tropical growers yearn for maples. They can grow but never really do as well as in more temperate areas. Such is life.

Everyone needs to work out watering according to their unique conditions, the soil mix, size of pot, etc. All the rest of us can do is offer our experiences as a guide.

You cannot over water in a single watering. Every time you water a bonsai you need to soak the pot and soil properly. Over watering is when we water when the soil is still wet from the previous time.
If the soil is still quite wet in the morning I'd skip watering.

Good luck with your little trident.

 

[Katie0317]

I've kept a close eye on this tree and haven't been watering it as I suspected the roots are wet. I left a thin bamboo stick in overnight (Groves of bamboo growing everywhere in our area, including our yard) and the bamboo came out wet.

I'm not very experienced at repotting but I can do it. Am wondering if I can just take the soil off the top to let it dry out or if I should repot in the middle of summer? If I repot should I put it in a bigger pot or leave it in the same pot? Not sure if I need to let the roots dry out if I repot or just trim them and put them back. How long can I leave the roots exposed to dry out?

The nursery I bought this at is 2 hours away so it requires a full day to get up there and back. It's a lot to carve out a full day but I'll do it if I need to. If I go I'd have an expert to look at it and that's a plus.

 

[Alcaviator]

I try to avoid fertilizer advice, but instead share what I do. I do use Biogold and make my own cakes with Plant Tone when I have time, and load up the trees every 3-4 weeks with more cakes. On top of that, I also mix a strong concentration of fish emulsion, like 1/4 cup+ in a 1.5 gallon watering can and water foliage and soil once or twice a week. My wife doesn’t appreciate the smell, and it attracts bees, so I do it in the evening, and then delay watering the next morning until necessary.

It only takes drying out once to damage the tips, so yes, it could have happened over a couple days. Shade cloth is fine, but the leaves may be larger and the internodes may be longer. While you’re still learning, that’s no big deal. When you want to enter shows, it will become important to shorten internodes and shrink leaves. That’s when precision pays off: good soil, perfect watering timing, careful pruning, but that’s for another day.

How do you make up your plant tone cakes? If you don’t mind sharing I have a 50 pound bag and this sounds great! Lol

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

How do you make up your plant tone cakes? If you don’t mind sharing I have a 50 pound bag and this sounds great! Lol

Cake: Feeding the trees

I feed organic; let them eat cake…and fish. For the last 6-7 years, my recipe has become simple and the results have become predictable. I check the forecast to look for a few sunny days&#823…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

 

[Alcaviator]

Cake: Feeding the trees

I feed organic; let them eat cake…and fish. For the last 6-7 years, my recipe has become simple and the results have become predictable. I check the forecast to look for a few sunny days&#823…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Thanks! I found it right after asking you. Hahaha. I have 50 pounds bags of plant tone that I’m about to have fun with