Building pads on pines

[AndyJ]

Hi folks.

I wonder if you can help me? I’m thinking about the process of building pads on pines and I think I’ve confused myself! How do you proceed when doing this?

- Do you let branches grow out long to develop thickness and then cut back, and then start pinching / decandling to get ramification? But you have to cut back to an existing shoot on pines, don’t you? You can’t just cut all growth off like you might do on a maple, knowing it will shoot from nodes further back on the trunk, pines won’t do that, will they?

- Or, as soon as you have shoots in the places you want branches, do you pinch / decandle to create ramification and rinse / repeat over multiple seasons and gradually grow the branch out like this? Will the branch thicken if you do this?

- Or, do you pinch / decandle a shoot and when this sends out new candles, do you select one of these to grow out as a sacrifice shoot on the branch? Then leave this sacrifice shoot to grow and thicken the branch while you pinch / decandle to create ramification on the branch?

I hope this makes sense?

Thanks all.

Andy

 

[Shibui]

There are many ways to get to the same destination. All 3 of the methods you have outlined will work. Just use whatever is appropriate in the situation. Sometimes I have used all methods in different places on the same tree or over the life of the tree.
Pines can be allowed to grow out for as long as there are healthy needles where buds are required. You don't need an actual branch because pines can produce new buds from the base of needles. Individual needles generally stay healthy for 2-3 years so shoots can be allowed to grow for several years for thickness and still bud back when chopped.

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

All pines are not created equal! Before you learn how to make pads, you need to identify what kind of pines you are working with. There are two main categories of pines that are treated completely differently to get ramification.

Multi-flush are JBP, JRP, and Pitch Pine

Single-flush all other pine species

Ryan Neil breaks this further to long needle single flush and short needle single flush.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks @Tidal Bonsai - yes I understand there are different types. I’ve got JWP and Scots that I pinch and JBP and JRP that are multi-flush that I decandle. I‘m trying to learn and understand the different techniques for the different types.

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

This is a very old, but a very good series on JBP

And this is the one on JWP

There are nuances to other species, but these videos will give you a good framework of what to do with single-flush and multi-flush species.

 

[AndyJ]

There are many ways to get to the same destination. All 3 of the methods you have outlined will work. Just use whatever is appropriate in the situation. Sometimes I have used all methods in different places on the same tree or over the life of the tree.
Pines can be allowed to grow out for as long as there are healthy needles where buds are required. You don't need an actual branch because pines can produce new buds from the base of needles. Individual needles generally stay healthy for 2-3 years so shoots can be allowed to grow for several years for thickness and still bud back when chopped.

Oh, ok thanks @Shibui - I thought there would be one route that I should be following but if all are viable I’ll look at my trees and work out what to try on each. I wasn’t sure if one way worked better than others.

 

[sorce]

The only difference in the actions we take for single or multi flush pines is a half inch.

Prove me wrong!

It's the results from the actions that are different.

Sorce

 

[Balbs]

The only difference in the actions we take for single or multi flush pines is a half inch.

Prove me wrong!

It's the results from the actions that are different.

Sorce

Hi Sorce, Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Adair M]

Some diagrams:

 

[Adair M]

Here is a link to a thread I made showing how I wire JBP to build pads:

Advanced wiring: using "fishhooks"

I've posted these pictures on a couple other threads, but they will eventually get buried... So I thought I'd make this one to document how to do "detail" wiring. These are the smaller wires that control the last couple of inches of branch, and set the tip ends to make pads. Usually most...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[sorce]

Hi Sorce, Can you explain what you mean?

They say leave a quarter inch of new growth decandling multi flush, and cut a quarter inch into old growth on single flush.

The timing can be exactly the same depending.

Single flush pines pop buds that can't be cut back to for a while.
Double Flush pines grow new branches.

There is just a lotta "smart guy Bullshit" that gets in the way of a simple understanding.

If each ones timing and technique had a value of 100, they crossover by 90. So they are the same 180. Each has ten on the end, and when folks stand and fight from either end, people get confused. It's no different than politics really.

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

Here is a link to a thread I made showing how I wire JBP to build pads:

Advanced wiring: using "fishhooks"

I've posted these pictures on a couple other threads, but they will eventually get buried... So I thought I'd make this one to document how to do "detail" wiring. These are the smaller wires that control the last couple of inches of branch, and set the tip ends to make pads. Usually most...

www.bonsainut.com

Thanks Adair - these drawings are brilliant - I’m going to print these off!!

 

[AndyJ]

Hi @adair. I’ve been studying these pictures to try and see how the branches were made. For the purpose of my query, can we assume we’re talking about multi-flush (JBP / JRP)

There are both wiggly branches and straight branches. I don’t know if these can be created by either decandling successively after year? Or by letting the branch grow out to the final length of the branch you want, and then pinching it? The ones that are wriggly seem to suggest they were decandled on a regular basis ....

If you look at this branch in one of your pictures, Adair, the branch is wriggly and doesn’t show and real evidence of having had a long, strong branch. There are lots of smaller branches and, for me, this looks very natural. Please can you explain how you developed this branch?

Many thanks.

Andy

 

[Mayank]

Here is a link to a thread I made showing how I wire JBP to build pads:

Advanced wiring: using "fishhooks"

I've posted these pictures on a couple other threads, but they will eventually get buried... So I thought I'd make this one to document how to do "detail" wiring. These are the smaller wires that control the last couple of inches of branch, and set the tip ends to make pads. Usually most...

www.bonsainut.com

Thanks for the nice diagrams. Really liked your wiring thread!

 

[Adair M]

Hi @adair. I’ve been studying these pictures to try and see how the branches were made. For the purpose of my query, can we assume we’re talking about multi-flush (JBP / JRP)

There are both wiggly branches and straight branches. I don’t know if these can be created by either decandling successively after year? Or by letting the branch grow out to the final length of the branch you want, and then pinching it? The ones that are wriggly seem to suggest they were decandled on a regular basis ....

If you look at this branch in one of your pictures, Adair, the branch is wriggly and doesn’t show and real evidence of having had a long, strong branch. There are lots of smaller branches and, for me, this looks very natural. Please can you explain how you developed this branch?

Many thanks.

Andy

Truth be told, you really have to be careful about having thick branches on pines.

If you look at pine trees, in general, you will note that while they have strong trunks, the branches are generally rather thin, and weak.

Pines are apically dominant. Some are more so that others, but they tend to want to grow tall, fast. You will often see pine forests with tall, straight trunks with no lower branches. Only balls of foliage up top. They allow the lower branches to weaken, due, and fall off. Only those branches up in the top live.

Now, as bonsai, we prefer to have branches all along the trunk. A pine grown with no neighbors won’t have the lower branches shaded out by the competing trees, so it might be able to keep some. Then, each branch is competing with other branches for light. Over time, since the pines were genetically programmed to grow up, not out, and since keeping low branches was NOT genetically programmed in, even solitary pines still have thin branches. As they get long, the sheer weight of the branch begins to cause them to hang down. (Not to mention the snow effect.)

Now... all that was a long winded way of saying that you DON’T want thick branches on a pine! The best way to develop them is by doing cut backs and once the tree’s trunk is about the size you want, decandling to obtain short internodes. A key feature you want to have on your pine branches is foliage that’s close to the trunk. That way, you can always shorten branches by cutting back. Even with regular decandling, branches will slowly get longer and longer. Every three or four years, you have to cut back to maintain scale. When you cut back, it tends to create “wiggle” in the branches. So... young branches are generally straight, old branches are generally wiggly. Using wire, you can make young branches look old by creating “wiggle”.

 

[meushi]

Some diagrams:

...

Adair, would you know which book or magazine those diagrams come from? I'd like to read the text surrounding those diagrams

 

[Adair M]

These came from multiple Japanese language magazines. Sorry, I don’t know which particular issues.

 

[meushi]

That's a shame I'll check my kindai stash... it may be in there. Thanks for responding so quickly!
The first one is about letting it run then pruning it back. The second is about laying wire on a branch and finer objectives of wiring (針金かけのポイント "the point of wiring"). The last few ones on what to do after laying the wire (針金かけ後).