Cali Juniper Collecting?

[Ris]

Hello all,

Just wanted to ask if anyone has info on where can I collect CA junipers?
I just wanted to experience the excitment of collecting.
I joined Kofu Bonsai Kai but felt awkward asking around as I am totally new...
Did ask a guy but he said the club cant get to the ranch so don't know???
Any suggestions.

Thanks Rishi.

 

[Attila Soos]

Rishi,
I sent this in a P.M, but since you asked in this thread, I am also posting my response here:



You cannot just go out and collect from the willd You can get arrested, or fined a hefty fine($2,000 - 10,000), or you can get sued by the owner. It's not worth it.

Every land has an owner. There are four kinds of ownerships here in California:

1. National Park (such as Yosemite National Park) - that is under federal jurisdiction (the United States of American owns it), and collecting is strictly prohibited

2. National Forests (such as Angeles National Forest, or Inyo National Forest, etc.) - the state owns it, and occasionally one can get permits for a few trees, at certain offices. I's up to the person who is in charge. I have not done it, though.

3. BLM land. This is state-owned land, managed by the Bureau of Land Management. You can call the BLM and ask for maps showhing where these lands are. They are all over the state. This is the easiest land to collect from, because they have the fewest restrictions.

4. Private land. This is where you have to aks the owner to give you permission. For a small amount per tree, owners will usually let you collect. But sometimes it's hard to locate the owners, because they may live far away from a certain piece of land.

I hope this helps.

 

[BigDave]

I just wanted to experience the excitment of collecting.
.

It really is like treasure hunting ...
Ris, I talked to Peter Macaseib last Sunday. Peter is one of 5 people who now go with Harry Hirao to the Juniper spot on Hanson Ranch.

I guess Harry is not taking huge groups up anymore, just his posse. Peter said if you want to collect with Harry, you have to become one of his paying students. Which seems appropiate, HH has been the most generous man ever in bonsai.

So thats a possibility.

good luck

-big D

 

[Ris]

It really is like treasure hunting ...
Ris, I talked to Peter Macaseib last Sunday. Peter is one of 5 people who now go with Harry Hirao to the Juniper spot on Hanson Ranch.

I guess Harry is not taking huge groups up anymore, just his posse. Peter said if you want to collect with Harry, you have to become one of his paying students. Which seems appropiate, HH has been the most generous man ever in bonsai.

So thats a possibility.

good luck

-big D

Thanks Dave,
That sounds like a win win situation for me.
Will ask Harry Hario next time I see him...
Thanks again,
Rishi.

 

[Attila Soos]

It really is like treasure hunting ...

What big D said....

But here is an other note for those who are very new, and want to start collecting:

Collecting is a very private thing, and people will be reluctant to share anything specific on a public forum. You will get general info, but nothing specific. People are very protective of information on prime locations, and will not advertise it. Good yamadori is nothing short of treasure, for bonsaists.

Think about it: if you found a location with buried treasures, would you advertise it to the world? Of course not....well, may be if you are tortured or black-mailed. But you will not give it up too easily...
On the other hand, you are trying to be a nice guy towards your fellow bonsaists, so you can't tell them to beat it and stop asking. Instead, you find all kinds of vague excuses.

Bonsai collectors are a very close group of people. They don't trust strangers, or occasional intruders. You have to be an insider, to get invited. They know that this treasure is very limited, and there are fewer and fewer trees to collect every year. So, gaining their trust and friendship will take a lot of effort and dedication from your part. Again, a good yamadori source is the most treasured secret in bonsai. There is nothing in this world, as far as bonsai is concerned, more valuable that this. Having knowledge and access to such a source, is a greatest privilege that a bonsaist can have.

 

[jk_lewis]

A few slight corrections:

There are four kinds of ownerships here in California:

More than that, actually.

1. National Park (such as Yosemite National Park) - that is under federal jurisdiction (the United States of American owns it), and collecting is strictly prohibited

Correct.

2. National Forests (such as Angeles National Forest, or Inyo National Forest, etc.) - the state owns it, and occasionally one can get permits for a few trees, at certain offices. I's up to the person who is in charge. I have not done it, though.

National Forests are owned by the U.S. Government, but they are managed under a multiple use concept and more things can be done on those lands than on parks -- including collection. Generally you can get permits to collect on National Forest lands. Each forest has a headquarters and often regional offices. All of them can issue collecting permits. The permits may be more specific as to what species you can collect, or where you can collect, or they can be much broader.

3. BLM land. This is state-owned land, managed by the Bureau of Land Management. You can call the BLM and ask for maps showhing where these lands are. They are all over the state. This is the easiest land to collect from, because they have the fewest restrictions.

BLM land also is owned by the U.S. Government (although I understand that California also has an agency with that name).
I cannot speak for the state agency, but the federal BLM (the Nation's largest landowner) usually is quite permissive as to what you can collect. Often permission is granted word-of-mouth from a local office.

Under the federal umbrella, lands are also owned by the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Corps of Engineers and, the General Services Administration -- and the Defense Department. Usually, no permits are available.

4. Private land. This is where you have to aks the owner to give you permission. For a small amount per tree, owners will usually let you collect. But sometimes it's hard to locate the owners, because they may live far away from a certain piece of land.

Private land is owned by individuals and by corporations. Individuals may be more likely to give permission to collect -- assuming you can find the land owner (Tax offices can help). Corporations are another matter entirely. They have lawyers looking out for their "interests" and those interests include not being sued if you get bitten by a rattlesnake or chop off a finger while you are collecting on their property. Permission is difficult to get.

In most states, there also are State Forests and State and City Parks. Collecting is OK with permission in most state forests, and probably NOT possible in parks.

 

[Attila Soos]

A few slight corrections:



More than that, actually.

Of course there are more, but I just listed the most common ones.

You are right, outside the private lands, the US government owns pretty much everything, naturally. They just fall under various jurisdictions.

 

[Attila Soos]

I cannot speak for the state agency, but the federal BLM (the Nation's largest landowner) usually is quite permissive as to what you can collect. Often permission is granted word-of-mouth from a local office.

That's what I suspected. BLM land is practically free-for-all. I've seen people digging for fossils down in the vicinity of Anza-Borrego desert area (east of San Diego), with no concerns or permits, whatsoever. I did the same down there, on my rock-hounding trips. I've seen some nice juniper-covered hills close by, I just need to consult my BLM maps in the near future, to make sure that those hills are also BLM.

 

[Ris]

That's what I suspected. BLM land is practically free-for-all. I've seen people digging for fossils down in the Anza-Borrego desert area (east of San Diego), with no concerns or permits, whatsoever. I did the same down there, on my rock-hounding trips. I've seen some nice juniper-covered hills close by, I just need to consult my BLM maps in the near future, to make sure that those hills are also BLM.

Thanks for all your reply and answers on the question...

 

[elliott]

I think if you joined , kokufu and volunteered with the clubs function's (they have an xmas party coming up), you will soon get your foot in the door.
I would like to bring up another point that has been overlooked so far. it's the morality of going out and digging trees that are hundreds or thousands of years old, when you have very little experience to dig then the best way and and keep them alive afterwards. Even the most experienced collectors have a high mortality rate on their collected trees.
Finding the trees is easy. finding trees worth digging and keeping them alive is years of experience. Most trees, unfortunatly, are big "sticks" unworthy of becoming a nice bonsai and should not be subjected to almost certain death by a newbie after it's managed to survive a harsh enviroment for 200 years, just so someone can "experience it". The realy good, twisty trees with movement have an even higher death rate after collection.
Sure, sometimes you hear about a hillside that is going to be bulldozed for developement, and if they let you in, get them all, but don't go into a pristeen enviroment and start pulling everything out of the ground, unless you have someone who realy knoes what they are doing with you.
A while back, a memeber of my club heard of an area with trees and the land owner said he can dig there. I begged him not to take out any trees untill the correct time of year and to be patient for the trees benefit.
Meanwhile a young kid who just joined the club who is real cocky, heard about the area and started pulling trees out. He neglected to back fill one of the holes he left in his wake. One of the land owners horses stumbled in the hole and broke it's leg. Guess what? no more digging and I'm sure by now word has spread all around there about the careless bonsai people.
What would happen if a story got out to the press about people going out and digging thousand year old trees, which more than likely will die, and if they survive are subjected to cruel branch bending and wrapping with tight steel wire. I'm sure PETA would start a new chapter just for trees and some laws would get passed.
Please, by all means, dig! but be patient and wait till someone who knows what they are doing teaches you the responcible, corerect way first. (ok, just gotkicked off my hi-horse with a broke leg)

 

[Ris]

So all good information being passed here, just to clear the air as
To when I said am a newbie, new to Bonsai culture but I have
Agriculture for more than 20 years with my parents as they were farmers
And have retired. I continued the culture for a few years until I moved to USA.
Am not perfect and won't make every plant survive but have experience to know
How to care for a collected tree/plant/shrub/bush...
Had nor have any plans in going out digging Willie Nillie without permission
or permits. If that kid had common sense he would of filled the hole right,
not because a newbie makes a bad choice means another would do the same.
Thanks for your view and appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Best regards,
Rishi.

 

[nathanbs]

I think Elliot was referring to Kofu Kai not Kokufu. That would be crazy to have to go to Japan and smooze so that you can come back to CA to dig junipers. My experience with Harry is that if you show him a little arm muscle or you look like you have a strong back he'll come up to you and ask you to go digging. Be prepared to do the heavy lifting and he'll give you a tree of his choice when you are all done.

 

[Ris]

Hello all,
Had the pleasure of venturing on a dig with the group and making more friends.
It was fun looking up and down the hills for that special tree, but then lunch came
And tiredness set in lol. I collected 4 massive trees all on my own, wish
I could taken a picture of me carrying each find back to the truck lol.
The best part was seeing mr Harry Hario face watching me pass by only to stop
and chat a bit saying thanks for having me it was awesome...
Pictures later tonight.

Ris.

 

[luckydevil728]

What happened to the pics???

 

[maria kapra]

Looking good at Mojave...cheers!

 

[sherwoodschwartz]

A few slight corrections:


Private land is owned by individuals and by corporations. Individuals may be more likely to give permission to collect -- assuming you can find the land owner (Tax offices can help). Corporations are another matter entirely. They have lawyers looking out for their "interests" and those interests include not being sued if you get bitten by a rattlesnake or chop off a finger while you are collecting on their property. Permission is difficult to get.

QUOTE]

just a clarification of the clarification- as this is what i deal with every day. corporations are just another way for certain individuals or groups of individuals to hold title to real property or other assets. not all corporations are large businesses with impenetrable walls of bureacracy. a corporation can have as few as two people behind it- a mom and pop style situation. in fact, of the hundreds of corporate documents i review yearly, a comfortable majority fall into a small business framework where only a few are managing the enterprise. this also holds true for LLCs, partnerships, etc. these are all just titles for groups of people who have chosen to do business a certain way.

i post this only to say that just because a piece of land is vested in a corp or some such business entity, doesn't necesarily mean you will have a lot of trouble getting persmission. you might of course, as there certainly are large corporations as pointed out above, but not always.

as for discovering who holds title to property, i would recommend a title company if your local assessor office can't help. try for a locally owned company, as they usually have more incentive to help and a customer service desk that can look up ownership fairly quickly. you do need to have some identifying information about the parcel though.

just my two cents. well, maybe only one in this case.

 

[Ris]

Here are the trees I got after reducing foliage.

 

[Ris]

Looking good at Mojave...cheers!

Were you there? i didn't see you. I have a few others that am thinking about
Aproach Grafting on but would like advising on where is best
to place them.

Rishi.

 

[Ris]

Hello all,
A guy whom collects Cali junipers has some for sale and asked me to spread the word.
His name is Jo 714-360-9202 am not sure if he will ship but very sure about local pickup.
Has small to really big. Now am just doing him a favor by letting others know but in no way responsible for any sales or agreements... He is cool to deal with please let him know I gave you his contact info...

Rishi.

 

[misfit11]

Hello all,
A guy whom collects Cali junipers has some for sale and asked me to spread the word.
His name is Jo 714-360-9202 am not sure if he will ship but very sure about local pickup.
Has small to really big. Now am just doing him a favor by letting others know but in no way responsible for any sales or agreements... He is cool to deal with please let him know I gave you his contact info...

Rishi.

Hi Ris,
Where is he located? My mother-in-law lives in Upland and will be up here in a couple weeks. I'm interested and thought maybe she could bring a tree up for me.

Cory