Can I grow an A. palmatum (Japanese Maple) in my area ?

[Gustavo Martins]

Hey,

Quite new to this whole bonsai thing, but recently bought (without doing a priori research) an A. palmatum from a local nursery.

I've now read that deciduous trees, in general, and A. palmatum in particular, may need a certain time of chill conditions in order to survive in the longer-term. However, I live in the Azores. I wasn't able to find the zone for my area but I am guessing it should be a 10 or 11. Basically we have only a few days per year, usually in February, when minimum temperatures get to 4-6 C. Most of the winter, minimum temperatures are around 10-12 C. Is this enough for A. palmatum?

I read that some people allow their trees to spend some time in the fridge to somehow mitigate the lack of cold. I don't think my wife would enjoy this idea that much

There is a local garden (that I know of) that grows one or two of these; as trees, not bonsai. Is this an indication that they can live here as bonsai as well? Many other deciduous trees can also be found here, but so do most tropicals which also thrive outside without any special care.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Gustavo

 

[Dav4]

Unfortunately, I would doubt an Acer palmatum would survive in a local that doesn't get any winter chill. You MAY be able to grow a trident maple, A. buergeranium...maybe. They do better in warmer climates then palmatums. One option would be to use a refrigerator to provide the chill requirements.

 

[Anthony]

Welcome Gustavo to crazy !!

Please put you area of living in your avatar, see how my own is set up.

http://www.japanesemaplesonline.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/home.showpage/pageID/4/index.htm

For cold use the fridge - vegetable crisper temperature for 2 or 3 months.
Purchase an old refrigerator if need be.
Allow for cold to set in naturally outdoors, then send to he fridge.
For us it is third week in January.
Check every two weeks for watering.

Since 1981 - Hackberrys and 1993 Gingko - by fridge.
Use several rooted cuttings to test.

Good Luck
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Thanks for your prompt replies.

@Dav4 - So should I just ignore the fact that they can be grown locally? Again, as trees, not bonsai (don't know if that matters much)? Going to look for trident maples. I really love these Acer spp. and it would be a shame to not be allowed to grow one. Acer pseudoplatanus is very common as an ornamental over here, but I suppose the large-sized leafs make it unsuitable for bonsai purposes right?


@Anthony - Thanks for the link. Lots of information. Will put my area in the avatar.
I don't think it would be a wise idea to buy a fridge to keep a single bonsai. Maybe if I get really end buying/making lots of them, but not just yet. I better try convincing my wife so that she allows me to put it in the 'common' fridge. It's going to be fun.

The tree I bought is a regular untrained nursery tree. So I might just let it outside for a couple of years and see how it copes with my climate. Just do a repotting as it clearly is not the best draining medium and it typically rains quite a bit over here most of the year.

I also bought an s-shaped Chinese elm 'bonsai'. I know, I know... the cursed evil of bonsaist-wanna-be I am planning a big trunk chop early next year. This one apparently suits my climate fine (it is outside). Can you confirm? (I know it's a maple subform, but I believe it would not be wise to start a new thread just to ask this.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Remember me mentioning the garden where I know they grow Acer palmatum? I stumbled on their website and they have a list with all the trees they have around. This is a list of the Acer spp. To me, this is still just a list of names with little 'meaning'. Does anyone recognize these species/varieties? Is any of these any good for bonsai on my climate? I could try asking if I can air-layer a branch off

Acer campbellii ssp. campbellii
Acer davidii
Acer griseum
Acer henryi
Acer japonicum 'Aconitifolium'
Acer mandshuricum
Acer negundo 'Argenteovariegatum'
Acer negundo 'Flamingo'
Acer negundo 'Kelly’s Gold'
Acer palmatum
Acer palmatum 'Asahi Zuru'
Acer palmatum 'Atropurpureum'
Acer palmatum 'Burgundy Lace'
Acer palmatum 'Butterfly'
Acer palmatum 'Dissectum'
Acer palmatum 'Dissectum Atropurpureum'
Acer palmatum 'Garnet'
Acer palmatum 'Osakazuki'
Acer palmatum 'Seiryu'
Acer palmatum 'Senkaki'
Acer palmatum 'Shigitatsu Sawa'
Acer palmatum 'Shishigashira'
Acer palmatum 'Trompenburg'
Acer platanoides 'Crimson King'
Acer pseudoplatanus
Acer shirasawanum 'Aureum'

 

[Dav4]

If they are used widely as landscape trees, then you should not have issues using them as bonsai material. Seeing them available in only one nursery doesn't necessarily meant that they will do well in your local, though. I'd want to see more then one or two of them growing for many years in your area to be confidant.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

In that garden they must be old, as they are quite large. But no you do not see them often. They are kind of difficult to source around here. Maybe the reason for this is that they do not grow very well locally. I'll have to plant them up in the mountains for the winter

 

[ajm55555]

Unfortunately for you, since humans love warm indoor environments, it's much easier to grow tropical plants in cold areas than deciduous plants in hot climates ;-)
As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't put a maple in a fridge, poor little one!

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy Gustavo!

I found a wine cooler the other day with a glass front.

Found=Free.

Glass front meaning view without opening.

Broke....

Find one thats not!

Sorce

 

[Gustavo Martins]

I see that the fridge technique does not gather consensus within the bonsai community.

@sorce - I don't know about your region, but over here I do not often see wine coolers on the street

Anyways, I can try to squeeze the plant inside a fridge at the Uni (my working place). My only problem is that the plant is still in a relatively large nursery pot, so it may be difficult to fit it within the fridge. I was planning to repot it next spring...

hmmm... no simple solution for my little tree

 

[Gustavo Martins]

on another topic: is there any reliable way to identify the variety of an A. palmatum?

Judging from some pictures on the internet, mine mostly resembles the leaves and description of an A. palmatum 'Akane', according to: http://www.mendocinomaples.com/acer-palmatum/akane

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Managed to find a botanist at the uni and asked if he knows whether A. palmatum are grown over here. He said that there are not many around, but that he knows a few people that a few large trees and they seem to grow fine with exuberant coloring. So I think I am going to try leaving growing in the yard for 2-3 years and assess. If it fails I then move on.

In the meantime, I read that A. campestre in native to Europe (including some hot countries such as Italy, Greece and Turkey). Maybe this species is more likely to adapt to my conditions over here. Does anyone has any feedback on these?

 

[rodeolthr]

I saw acer palmatum growing in a Japanese garden in Monaco. I was quite surprised, since I don't believe they get any frost there. The leaves weren't the prettiest, but then again it was October and they were in full sun. They seemed to be quite healthy and appeared to have been there for many years. Also, I once planted an acer palmatum seedling in my sister's garden in Orange County, California....uncertain how it would do. In 2-3 years time, it has shot up to about 12 ft. It was also planted in full sun, and the leaves would get quite beat up. I would suggest that if you could collect seed from the trees that are growing there, you might have good luck as well.

 

[Starfox]

Maybe it would be best to just plant it in the ground and treat it right to see if it stays healthy. That way if it does then you can propagate from it and start training it while it is growing out and if it doesn't, well the tree is lost anyway but at least you will learn a bit about the species and it could give more time to prepare for the next one.

You are in zone 11 I believe and I'm in a 10 but I decided to get one(katsura) and do exactly that, it is too small to bonsai so needs to grow out anyway. I'm aware it will be touch and go here as well but I figure you never know unless you try.
First I need to try and fix my soil a bit which is what would do more damage I think.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Cool. So there are a few more examples. Thanks. Maybe this zoning system was created regarding the ability (or lack of) of species to reproduce, and not su much its ability to live? I like the idea of getting seeds from local trees. Or even get the permission to air-layer. That may save a few years.

@Starfox - I imagine the south of Spain should be a bit chiller and drier in winter compared. At least, the mainland Portugal sure is colder and drier. Here is warmish and wet (kind of subtropical) for most the winter. Temperature range today is 12 C (night) and 15 C (day) C. There's just this big ocean around that acts as a large buffer against major temperature oscillations and there is the Gulf Stream that passes by and heats up the seawater (currently at 19 C). To see any snow here you need to go over 2000 m in altitude and that should only be in January/August.

Yes I will leave it be for now. Just repotting when the season comes and perhaps do some trimming. If it fails in the end there is nothing I can do.

 

[ajm55555]

Managed to find a botanist at the uni and asked if he knows whether A. palmatum are grown over here. He said that there are not many around, but that he knows a few people that a few large trees and they seem to grow fine with exuberant coloring. So I think I am going to try leaving growing in the yard for 2-3 years and assess. If it fails I then move on.

In the meantime, I read that A. campestre in native to Europe (including some hot countries such as Italy, Greece and Turkey). Maybe this species is more likely to adapt to my conditions over here. Does anyone has any feedback on these?

If you can't live without an Acer (I couldn't), then Acer Campestre could definitely be your choice. In Italy though it's more common in the North (cooler weather) than the South but it's definitely a strong tree. It won't turn red in Autumn though, just yellow.
On the other front, I think you can definitely try with a Japanese Maple. If you hadn't already one, my strongest suggestion would be to choose one variety that is more resistant to hot temperatures. Since you're not in that situation, keep the tree in the coolest (natural) place you can find in all seasons and in the summer, carefully avoid direct exposition to the sun or hot winds. And... post pictures!

 

[Gustavo Martins]

@ajm55555 - Thanks for your feedback. That's what I will do. Also going to try to source an A. campestre. I love Acer spp.

 

[miker]

I see that the fridge technique does not gather consensus within the bonsai community.

@sorce - I don't know about your region, but over here I do not often see wine coolers on the street

Anyways, I can try to squeeze the plant inside a fridge at the Uni (my working place). My only problem is that the plant is still in a relatively large nursery pot, so it may be difficult to fit it within the fridge. I was planning to repot it next spring...

hmmm... no simple solution for my little tree

The fridge technique works.

Take a just defoliated temperate deciduous tree species that has had a full growing season, put in the fridge between 32-42F for 3 months or so(keep potting media moist and from drying out, just like outdoors) and you will effectively simulate winter for said tree. Simple as that.

 

[M. Frary]

The problem with refrigerator wintering is that is so dry.
It isn't like keeping them outside in the cold where there is some moisture in the air. Tough need to be able to bring the humidity up inside of a refrigerator or the tree dries out and dies.
There is no substitute for outdoors.

 

[MACH5]

The problem with refrigerator wintering is that is so dry.
It isn't like keeping them outside in the cold where there is some moisture in the air. Tough need to be able to bring the humidity up inside of a refrigerator or the tree dries out and dies.
There is no substitute for outdoors.

That's exactly correct. Please be aware that although it does work, the air inside the fridge can be quite dry and can/will desiccate the fine twigs on a tree. I almost lost one of my finest shohin acer palmatums a few years back keeping it in the fridge for a couple of weeks. Although the soil was kept damp, the dry air inside desiccated the branches and all but one branch died. The solution here might be to place some containers of water to keep up the humidity.

Still, as M. Frary said, it is never a true substitute for the outdoors. The moral of the story here: grow only what does naturally well in your growing zone. Trees age and develop much better as a result and it will be much easier on you!