Canada plum propagation help

[Frozentreehugger]

So what I have here I believe is Canada Plum Prunus Nigra. It is closely related to American wild plum . But is separate species It flowers before the leaves this is a wild tree . I will have to see the leaves to be 100 percent sure . I live in the native range but it will hybridize with other plums. From flower details and the black bark stem details I believe this is pure tree . I’m told they have to found isolated alone like this It’s growing on federal governent controlled park land so collecting is illegal . Collecting fruit and or taking cuttings is perfectly legal Question is how to propagate . Area has flock of wild turkeys looks like they or something ripped all the last fruit from the tree so may be hard to beat them to it . So looking for cutting advice timing ext any one have experience prunus mume cuttings etc . Research says it will come true from seed as long as no other cultivars around . It is prized as such for its cold hardiness as root stock for fruit trees info I have is cuttings after flowers fade but looking for someone with practical experience any thoughts

 

[Drewski]

If I was you, I’d hope either @Canada Bonsai or @River's Edge chime in.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Collecting fruit and or taking cuttings is perfectly legal Question is how to propagate

Propagation strategies vary relatively widely from Prunus to Prunus. In general, I recommend picking up this book (see attached) because it is useful for so many species that we use in bonsai. However, I would not want you to buy this book just for Prunus nigra -- see attached for the totality of what is said about the species. Of course, there is much to learn from what is said about other Prunus varieties in this book that may be helpful in the case of Prunus nigra, but that will require more work and some imagination on your part.

I don't have any experience taking cuttings from neighbourhood or wild trees, so there are people far more qualified than me to speak here. I get emails all the time from people who saw a big Japanese Maple in their neighbourhood and want to take cuttings -- I am not the right person to help. I think of cuttings in the thousands and I work with ideal conditions. I know there's an entire world out there of people who get pleasure from trying a few cuttings here and there of all sorts of things, and they often succeed!

For my purposes, juvenility s a critical factor, as is vigour. My cutting-propagation plants are kept young (and rotate out of the cycle when they get too old). They also have the pedal to the floor with fertilizer (which is not what I would ordinarily do with bonsai). In this case, unless the plant is sending out strong shoots I personally would not bother with cuttings, but like I said I'm sure there are people who would try one anyways and may very well succeed.

Seed might be the more reliable option in terms of success rate.

If you really want to try cuttings, late May to early July is when I take my Prunus mume, Prunus nipponica, and Prunus incisa cuttings with +90% success rate, but I don't know if that will be helpful for Prunus nigra. You should also keep in mind that my parents plants get an early spring start in my greenhouse, so you will want to adjust for your field-growing tree.

 

[River's Edge]

So what I have here I believe is Canada Plum Prunus Nigra. It is closely related to American wild plum . But is separate species It flowers before the leaves this is a wild tree . I will have to see the leaves to be 100 percent sure . I live in the native range but it will hybridize with other plums. From flower details and the black bark stem details I believe this is pure tree . I’m told they have to found isolated alone like this It’s growing on federal governent controlled park land so collecting is illegal . Collecting fruit and or taking cuttings is perfectly legal Question is how to propagate . Area has flock of wild turkeys looks like they or something ripped all the last fruit from the tree so may be hard to beat them to it . So looking for cutting advice timing ext any one have experience prunus mume cuttings etc . Research says it will come true from seed as long as no other cultivars around . It is prized as such for its cold hardiness as root stock for fruit trees info I have is cuttings after flowers fade but looking for someone with practical experience any thoughts

Quick check of literature indicates propagation by seed, with three months cold germination. I would experiment with all types of cutting methods. Basically if a species is not used for commercial purposes the propagation methods are likely unexplored. Research is driven by funding.
Your comment that it is prized for root stock would indicate that some commercialization may have already occurred so I would start with those nurseries involved.
I would also seek out locations where they may exist that collection is legal. Mature collected stock is a better starting point for Bonsai purposes as well as propagation research attempts. I have forwarded to you by PM my propagation notes for Prunus if they are of help.
Find a copy of Dirr and Heuser for details of other propagation methods by cuttings. " The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation". If possible the second edition is preferred.
They seem to be readily available in Canadian nurseries. https://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/product/canada-plum-tree/

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Quick check of literature indicates propagation by seed, with three months cold germination. I would experiment with all types of cutting methods. Basically if a species is not used for commercial purposes the propagation methods are likely unexplored. Research is driven by funding.
Your comment that it is prized for root stock would indicate that some commercialization may have already occurred so I would start with those nurseries involved.
I would also seek out locations where they may exist that collection is legal. Mature collected stock is a better starting point for Bonsai purposes as well as propagation research attempts. I have forwarded to you by PM my propagation notes for Prunus if they are of help.
Find a copy of Dirr and Heuser for details of other propagation methods by cuttings. " The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation". If possible the second edition is preferred.
They seem to be readily available in Canadian nurseries. https://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/product/canada-plum-tree/

Thanks frank yes I would love to find a wild tree collectable . You are correct about availability from nursery unfortunately .it’s not that simple most don’t have stock

Propagation strategies vary relatively widely from Prunus to Prunus. In general, I recommend picking up this book (see attached) because it is useful for so many species that we use in bonsai. However, I would not want you to buy this book just for Prunus nigra -- see attached for the totality of what is said about the species. Of course, there is much to learn from what is said about other Prunus varieties in this book that may be helpful in the case of Prunus nigra, but that will require more work and some imagination on your part.

I don't have any experience taking cuttings from neighbourhood or wild trees, so there are people far more qualified than me to speak here. I get emails all the time from people who saw a big Japanese Maple in their neighbourhood and want to take cuttings -- I am not the right person to help. I think of cuttings in the thousands and I work with ideal conditions. I know there's an entire world out there of people who get pleasure from trying a few cuttings here and there of all sorts of things, and they often succeed!

For my purposes, juvenility s a critical factor, as is vigour. My cutting-propagation plants are kept young (and rotate out of the cycle when they get too old). They also have the pedal to the floor with fertilizer (which is not what I would ordinarily do with bonsai). In this case, unless the plant is sending out strong shoots I personally would not bother with cuttings, but like I said I'm sure there are people who would try one anyways and may very well succeed.

Seed might be the more reliable option in terms of success rate.

If you really want to try cuttings, late May to early July is when I take my Prunus mume, Prunus nipponica, and Prunus incisa cuttings with +90% success rate, but I don't know if that will be helpful for Prunus nigra. You should also keep in mind that my parents plants get an early spring start in my greenhouse, so you will want to adjust for your field-growing tree.

Thanks I appreciate your time . Been meaning to buy a copy of that book so thanks for the info that it’s worth it .going to try some cuttings from the tree . And hopefully beer the wildlife to some fruit . Basically for the uniqueness of this tree . Or better put the authentic nature of it

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Quick check of literature indicates propagation by seed, with three months cold germination. I would experiment with all types of cutting methods. Basically if a species is not used for commercial purposes the propagation methods are likely unexplored. Research is driven by funding.
Your comment that it is prized for root stock would indicate that some commercialization may have already occurred so I would start with those nurseries involved.
I would also seek out locations where they may exist that collection is legal. Mature collected stock is a better starting point for Bonsai purposes as well as propagation research attempts. I have forwarded to you by PM my propagation notes for Prunus if they are of help.
Find a copy of Dirr and Heuser for details of other propagation methods by cuttings. " The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation". If possible the second edition is preferred.
They seem to be readily available in Canadian nurseries. https://www.hardyfruittrees.ca/product/canada-plum-tree/

Thanks frank
I’m still looking for a wild tree . As for purchasing them from a nursery not exactly as simple as one would think . Main problem
I have run into it authentic species . It’s related American wild plum which is more common and they will cross pollinate . Most nurseries consider the2the same tree . And or what they have is it pure or out of stock . Main difference is the red in the flowers ( which some other plums have ) combined with the near black bark . American is grey to dark grey . Like I said the info I have is will come true from seed if no other plums around . And is prized for its cold hardiness as root stock . Interesting seems the way to propagate is seed . One would think as you said commercial would try cuttings . Thanks for your time . One of my points is if I start from seed or young plant I at least want the real thing . The black bark flower combo is striking

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks frank
I’m still looking for a wild tree . As for purchasing them from a nursery not exactly as simple as one would think . Main problem
I have run into it authentic species . It’s related American wild plum which is more common and they will cross pollinate . Most nurseries consider the2the same tree . And or what they have is it pure or out of stock . Main difference is the red in the flowers ( which some other plums have ) combined with the near black bark . American is grey to dark grey . Like I said the info I have is will come true from seed if no other plums around . And is prized for its cold hardiness as root stock . Interesting seems the way to propagate is seed . One would think as you said commercial would try cuttings . Thanks for your time . One of my points is if I start from seed or young plant I at least want the real thing . The black bark flower combo is striking

Please keep in mind that seed propagation involves natural variation, so try to begin with lots of seed.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Plums are notoriously hard to propagate. I've had a couple regular plum winter cuttings take root: this years growth, overwintered in the cold in damp medium with heaps of rooting hormone. Over winter they calloused, then in spring sent out roots.

But they succumbed quite fast after leafing out.

 

[River's Edge]

Plums are notoriously hard to propagate. I've had a couple regular plum winter cuttings take root: this years growth, overwintered in the cold in damp medium with heaps of rooting hormone. Over winter they calloused, then in spring sent out roots.

But they succumbed quite fast after leafing out.

Unfortunately that is a common experience, it appears the roots take longer to become fully functional and the reserves run out. Often they fail as soon as they are shifted from the original cutting media after leafing out. To combat this I have changed to striking the cuttings in individual containers and slightly larger containers to avoid having to transfer in the early stages. If the cutting is not disturbed for the first two growing seasons it leads to improves results.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Please keep in mind that seed propagation involves natural variation, so try to begin with lots of seed.

That’s one of the problems one lone tree . Desire for exact species . Hence my interest in cuttings . The cold hardiness is a plus if I can started . I can grow in a grow bed maybe get a air layer going or at least some rapid growth

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Plums are notoriously hard to propagate. I've had a couple regular plum winter cuttings take root: this years growth, overwintered in the cold in damp medium with heaps of rooting hormone. Over winter they calloused, then in spring sent out roots.

But they succumbed quite fast after leafing out.

Thanks that’s the info I was looking for . Not what I wanted to hear but facts . Have you tried spring / summer cuttings I’ve heard prunes mume is normally propagated from winter cuttings . But you have most likely nailed why Canadian is grown from pure tree seeds

 

[Frozentreehugger]

The Canadian national arboretum is nearby in Ottawa . If any tree people visit the city should check it out . Large collection of some very old trees . Native and multiple donations from other countries to Canada . Taking any part of the tree is illegal except seeds and cones . There is a Canada plum there somewhere I will try and find but the likely hood of the seeds purity with other plums around is not great but like Frank says plant a bunch . I’m assuming the tree is large I have. Not see. It. But everything there is well cared for so should be healthy

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I’ve heard prunes mume is normally propagated from winter cuttings

This is a misconception. Taking hardwood cuttings of Prunus mume is an obscure approach to propagating them that has unfortunately has been popularized without good reason. It is a propagation technique that is used exclusively, and as a last resort, for Prunus mume cultivars that are otherwise difficult to propagate from cuttings taken in May to July ... but even this is misguided:

The vigorous strains of Prunus mume can easily be propagated from cuttings taken in May and July. They root with upwards of 90% success rate within 6-8 weeks (see attached). I have been producing over 500 per year. It is these strains of Prunus mume that are the most appropriate strains to be developing bonsai (seed would be the next alternative). Cultivars (which tend to be slow-growing) can be grafted onto this material at many different moments in the tree's life.

Grafting is absolutely fundamental to developing Prunus mume and at different stages of trees' developement, whether you are swapping cultivars or not. There are single Prunus mume that have appeared in major Japanese exhibitions twice (or more) with totally different cultivars each time. As Bjorn has explained (and i've tested it), you can go from a grafted scion to Kokufu-ready ramification in just 5-6 years.

Having a Prunus mume cultivar on it's own roots is totally unnecessary, which makes the low-yield and energy-intense process of hardwood cuttings also unnecessary except in very specific contexts. One of these contexts would be early winter pruning: if you're going to be pruning your tree in preparation for the flowering period, you may want to use those branches as hardwood cuttings rather than discard them. This is fun, and it sometimes works, but it is far from the standard propagation method for Prunus mume, whether we are talking garden centres or bonsai nurseries.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

This is a misconception. Taking hardwood cuttings of Prunus mume is an obscure approach to propagating them that has unfortunately has been popularized without good reason. It is a propagation technique that is used exclusively, and as a last resort, for Prunus mume cultivars that are otherwise difficult to propagate from cuttings taken in May to July ... but even this is misguided:

The vigorous strains of Prunus mume can easily be propagated from cuttings taken in May and July. They root with upwards of 90% success rate within 6-8 weeks (see attached). I have been producing over 500 per year. It is these strains of Prunus mume that are the most appropriate strains to be developing bonsai (seed would be the next alternative). Cultivars (which tend to be slow-growing) can be grafted onto this material at many different moments in the tree's life.

Grafting is absolutely fundamental to developing Prunus mume and at different stages of trees' developement, whether you are swapping cultivars or not. There are single Prunus mume that have appeared in major Japanese exhibitions twice (or more) with totally different cultivars each time. As Bjorn has explained (and i've tested it), you can go from a grafted scion to Kokufu-ready ramification in just 5-6 years.

Having a Prunus mume cultivar on it's own roots is totally unnecessary, which makes the low-yield and energy-intense process of hardwood cuttings also unnecessary except in very specific contexts. One of these contexts would be early winter pruning: if you're going to be pruning your tree in preparation for the flowering period, you may want to use those branches as hardwood cuttings rather than discard them. This is fun, and it sometimes works, but it is far from the standard propagation method for Prunus mume, whether we are talking garden centres or bonsai nurseries.

Thanks that clears up some stuff

 

[Frozentreehugger]

So update local commercial native tree nursery . Normally you can only purchase in 100 tree quantities . Reforestation seedlings or potted native stock . Went this AM to there annual left over stock sale to the public . Purchased 3 wild American plum . Talked to the owner he has a seed source for Canada plum Info is never tried to grow from cuttings . Been growing from seed for 2 years ( sold out) told me he gets very low germination rate less than 20 percent compared to over 80 for American plum . I pre ordered 25 potted stock smallest order I can get commercial will be greenhouse grown from seeds this fall over the winter for next spring . Have to get some sort of reforestation. Permit from the Ontario government so he can sell them to me but that should be easy just have to ask . I own land only re request . Can even right the cost off my taxes that’s got to be a first for bonsai

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Quick update for confirmation e mail . From the grower . They will have a crop of seeds this year . Based on there experience having a low germination rate . And the bonus that I was first to order this year . There confident my 25 trees will be available in the spring . Essentially my order will be filled first . Looking forward to it . The 2 closely related American plum I purchased from them . At there late spring sale ( they sell left over stock twice a year in smaller quantities . Anyway felt it was to late to repot them left in 1 gallon nursery pots . Wired them and feed well they grew vigorously . So far I really like the fact that compared to other prunus the leaves are relatively small And stay that way even heavily fert . They have nice light coloured line green new growth that turns . What I call medium green . Heavily bent trunk still actively healthy grew . And trunk base suckers developed . I’m hopping these can be used as sacrificial trunk thickening . Add to that the Canada plum will be more cold hardy . Plan is to develop some in raised beds . Looks promising

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Got to take the good with the bad . Trip to last sale day at the nursery I have C plum ordered for spring 25 trees . Produced a talk with farm foreman . Bad news is they seriously doubt the viability of this years seed . ( he is not involved in germination as is not sure the exact reason for that believe ) end result may order may not be able to fill until next fall instead of spring . But he found me the only 2 they had not exactly the picture of health . He admitted they were in back corner of hoop house low light situation. But beggars can’t be choosy . Besides the foliage colour they seem healthy Plus is the small one I’m convinced is 2 separate plants . The leaf pic is C plum on left with. American plum right The similarity is obvious . The C is supposed to be wider across the middle of leaf less distinct pointed tip and smaller teeth at the margin . The American was purchased there in the spring and is heavily fertilized on full sun most of the leaves are 50 percent bigger than comparison pic Not ideal news but I actually have plants in my yard

 

[Frozentreehugger]

So a mid winter update . Some further research into the species. Has revealed sone interesting info . The plant was at one time far more abundant . Then it is today . The French explorer . Samuel Champlain wrote about the delicacy . That was dried Canada plums served . To him by the natives . As mentioned before considered the most cold hardy plum tree . Has been used in the genetic make up of multiple . Crosses with European and oriental plums. To create . Cold hardy orchards . It is considered the best pollinator for hybrid cultivated plums . ( I believe this is because it has a early starting and long lasting pollination period . So it should flower fairly long . It is this feature that makes . Acquiring. Trees possible . It has a much lower germination rate than other plums . Seeds must come from isolated trees . Making it difficult to find . But they are sought out for there attributes . My local reforestation . Farm has informed me that my 25 tree order . Will not be filled this spring even though I’m first on the list . Seed failure . But I have 10 trees coming from a fruit tree nursery . That Guarantees purity . Sold as pollinators . Will arrive as bare root seedlings in the spring . 1 to 3 feet high . Also have 2 mixed seedlings from there orchard . Coming they are seed grown . From multiple oriental and European . Fruit cultivars . Pollinated by the bees . So no one can say what they will be .

 

[Underdog]

I have an American Plum and simply stuck cuttings in the grow bed after a summer trim. 100% of them rooted quickly with no special care or effort. I've gave many away.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I have an American Plum and simply stuck cuttings in the grow bed after a summer trim. 100% of them rooted quickly with no special care or effort. I've gave many away.

Ya I have a couple of American also . But no trim yet year one with me . My info is American easy to propagate from seed . 80 to 90 percent success Canada 10 to 15 percent . Only info I found on cuttings is Canada difficult . American plum is very easy to source. I can get 3 to 4 year old 2 gallon reforestation trees. 15 $ or 12. $ if I buy more than 40