Canadian Hemlock need some ideas.

[stu929]

I picked this up and I'll be honest. I haven't the slightest idea of what type of design to use. It has a nice taper at the bottom but as you can see foliage is somewhat space. Also the location of the branches aren't exactly optimal. The 5 dollar price tag and not having a Hemlock got the better of me.

So if anyone has any ideas on inspiration please lay it on me as I am seriously drawing a complete blank.

Oh and since this is in the noob forum I'm not going to do the work now I'm just asking for advice as I have been trying to make some plans for some of my recent pick ups and this one just leaves me scratching my head.

 

[stu929]

Some additional pictures for a reference of size. The base does swell pretty nice below what the camera can see. I didn't dig too far but it does continue to swell. Hoping for some decent nibari.

Thanks again..

 

[HorseloverFat]

My next move would be pretty drastic. .. but that’s me.. I swing wild. Your “next move” definitely does not have to be as.... aggressive as mine would be ... but you DO have some important decisions to make..

Hmmm..

Could we get possibly different angle (back and side) shots and unimpeded shots of the lower branch structure... I keep looking at the pictures, but feeling I still don’t REALLY know what’s going on.

Put that “base/lower branching structure” on the catwalk... show us all she’s got.

It will make “brainstorming” much easier.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

First, remember, hemlock does not back bud on wood old enough to have bark. All those short little green branches up and down your stems you will want to keep, at least until you have your final design set. The reason is, you will need them to become future branches or to replace branches removed. Hemlock are noted for being tolerant of growing in shade. But to keep the inner branches healthy, you should grow this hemlock in full sun, or near full sun.

You have a nice looks roughly 2 inches diameter trunk. What size tree would you like to create? Do you have any style of tree in mind?

 

[Japonicus]

My next move would be pretty drastic

All those short little green branches up and down your stems you will want to keep

I agree with both these posts. Looking forward to seeing how you wrangle this one down

 

[stu929]

I agree with both these posts. Looking forward to seeing how you wrangle this one down

So am I!

When I said I'm drawing a blank I wasn't lying. I will say it's completely untouched but it is very 2D like a peecock fan. I think it was packed in close with some other Hemlocks and that's why it doesn't have much growing forward or back. I thought about tipping it 45 degrees to a side and doing a raft/cascade. But really I'm looking for any inspiration I can find. Most people that pick these up have a single or dual trunk. The the way the trunk is on this I'm not sure where to go. Like I said 5 dollar deal got the best of me

As to the comment about my next move being drastic I'm actually very open to it. It will help me get out of the fear of doing to much. I very much like formal/informal upright and my brain struggles to grasp shapes that do not adhere to those. Not that I don't like them but it's hard for me to see the vision, hopefully this gets better with experience. Also I was watching Mirai's Christmas tree episode he just posted and he talks about nursery stock / cheap material gives us a great chance to learn and push the boundaries of what we are comfortable with because of what it is.

I keep looking around the site and haven't seen any trees start close to this form but I will continue my search.

Thanks in advance for any ideas

 

[stu929]

My next move would be pretty drastic. .. but that’s me.. I swing wild. Your “next move” definitely does not have to be as.... aggressive as mine would be ... but you DO have some important decisions to make..

Hmmm..

Could we get possibly different angle (back and side) shots and unimpeded shots of the lower branch structure... I keep looking at the pictures, but feeling I still don’t REALLY know what’s going on.

Put that “base/lower branching structure” on the catwalk... show us all she’s got.

It will make “brainstorming” much easier.

I'll take some better pictures tomorrow when the sun is back up. It's very 2 dimensional in my mind. Like I said not my best pick up but I love the look of the foliage on developed Hemlocks so I picked it up. I'm confident it has a nice taper down low, no idea how well hemlock heals though.

 

[Cable]

It's kinda broomy right now. You could be artistic and keep that if you want but that's not really how hemlock usually grow. I'd remove everything but the main trunk and regrow the branching.

 

[River's Edge]

It appears you are dealing with a Western Hemlock, based on the foliage and the bark appearance! Hemlock foliage has a natural tendency to droop and can be refined in pad form quite nicely. However, this typically requires an upright form and is easier to compose with a single or double trunk in a larger size Bonsai.
In order to optimize this material, one suggestion would be to reduce the number of trunks and grow out to establish a larger trunk with taper and movement as opposed to the current multi trunked bush appearance.
Hemlock do heal quite well, particularly with young stock such as yours.
This would also aid natural downward branch form of conifer styles.
In short I would focus on developing a proper root ball for Bonsai purposes and grow the material out for five or ten years before attempting to style.
Hemlock do require more care with repotting in order to keep them healthy, be careful to retain more fine roots closer to the surface and limit the amount of root removal until the tree is well established.

 

[ABCarve]

Doesn’t look very healthy for a nursery tree. Maybe the reason for the $5 price tag.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I think this really is an eastern or Canadian hemlock, Tsuga canadesis just not a really healthy one. I see no reason to doubt the nursery label. Natural styles for eastern hemlock usually have ascending branches, above horizontal. The drooping branches one sees in some spruce or fir is not how the eastern hemlock grows. Often I have seen them with candelabra form. They are a forest tree, you seldom see a lone hemlock in a field, so there are not a lot of photos of "lone hemlock, in a field". In the forest they are hard to get good photos of.

Other than form, I do agree with @River's Edge , your best bet is to leave the foliage alone this immediate upcoming season. Work on repotting, and reducing depth of the root system. I like Anderson flats for initial training of trees. They are 16 x 16 x 5 inch deep, with mesh bottoms. THey hold roughly 3 gallons of potting media. I would work of repotting in spring and try to step this tree into a wide shallow training container, Anderson flat or a home made training box, of somewhat similar dimensions. If you are going to work the roots, don't remove any foliage for 4 months prior and no foliage removal for the growing season after major root work.

I look at the tree, and the first 2 branches are almost, but not quite "bar branches", and my initial impression would e to eventually remove the right or the left branch. But I think you will be better served keeping all the branches for 2021. Do your repot in spring of 2021, and allow it to recover. Full sun will really help this to pick up in health and vigor. Letting it grow for several years, as River's Edge suggested is your best bet. Get the root system flattened out.

Standard "off the shelf" bonsai pots are almost always less than 4 inches deep. If you need a deeper pot, generally you need to have them custom made, and this can be expensive. This is why an Anderson flat is so useful. It holds enough media for rapid growth and yet is only 5 inches deep. I normally only fill my Anderson flats to the 3 or 4 inch depth.

 

[stu929]

I think this really is an eastern or Canadian hemlock, Tsuga canadesis just not a really healthy one. I see no reason to doubt the nursery label. Natural styles for eastern hemlock usually have ascending branches, above horizontal. The drooping branches one sees in some spruce or fir is not how the eastern hemlock grows. Often I have seen them with candelabra form. They are a forest tree, you seldom see a lone hemlock in a field, so there are not a lot of photos of "lone hemlock, in a field". In the forest they are hard to get good photos of.

Other than form, I do agree with @River's Edge , your best bet is to leave the foliage alone this immediate upcoming season. Work on repotting, and reducing depth of the root system. I like Anderson flats for initial training of trees. They are 16 x 16 x 5 inch deep, with mesh bottoms. THey hold roughly 3 gallons of potting media. I would work of repotting in spring and try to step this tree into a wide shallow training container, Anderson flat or a home made training box, of somewhat similar dimensions. If you are going to work the roots, don't remove any foliage for 4 months prior and no foliage removal for the growing season after major root work.

I look at the tree, and the first 2 branches are almost, but not quite "bar branches", and my initial impression would e to eventually remove the right or the left branch. But I think you will be better served keeping all the branches for 2021. Do your repot in spring of 2021, and allow it to recover. Full sun will really help this to pick up in health and vigor. Letting it grow for several years, as River's Edge suggested is your best bet. Get the root system flattened out.

Standard "off the shelf" bonsai pots are almost always less than 4 inches deep. If you need a deeper pot, generally you need to have them custom made, and this can be expensive. This is why an Anderson flat is so useful. It holds enough media for rapid growth and yet is only 5 inches deep. I normally only fill my Anderson flats to the 3 or 4 inch depth.

Thanks for the feedback. I know she doesn't look great I was honestly wondering I a chop then eventually a repot was in order but I can see definitely build a flat, repot it and put it in the sun. That won't be an issue.

It's label eastern and unless the nursery had several of them listed wrong I would tend to believe them. I think the issue is they were pushed into a corner and a pile and some on the edges had growth on one side this one was towards the middle and had very sparse growth. I think it just got leggy searching for the sun.

I'll repot and try not to touch it for a year. I just wanted to make plans so I understand just how much soil I need and don't miss a chance to work on it.

Btw could this go into pure pumice or close to pure pumice? I ask as it's going to take a lot of soil and not be touched for a while.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pumice is fine. They like moisture, but an open well draining mix is good. Pumice holds a lot of water.

 

[sorce]

It looks like it will have "root issues". You can almost see when it happened, grew well for some time, and this, maybe last year it got funky, and doesn't seem to have come out of it yet.

IMO. Something with "root issues" has a 50/50 chance of living after a soon Repot. They either needed it and blow, or needed it and go.

If you really like it, you may want to give it a year of antineglect before repotting. I feel like this one year of recovery could turn to 3 if repotted too soon.

Once it's better, I'd chop it down to everything in the sharpie picture and wait some.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

Hemlock do require more care with repotting in order to keep them healthy, be careful to retain more fine roots closer to the surface and limit the amount of root removal until the tree is well established.

The repot is best staged over time with Hemlock. there are several options. My favourite is remove part of the bottom and outside at first. Then work on segments in successive repots. Divide the root ball up like a pie with six slices and do alternate segments the second repot, and the remaining segments the final repot.
One other tip is to target the weakest segments first, using the stronger areas to aid recovery, then when the next set is done the tree has new vital sections of roots to aid the next recovery.
The first repot is great to reduce height of root ball overall with the bottom dealt with and the outside edges allow for teasing out some roots to encourage new growth. This approach also leaves the surface fine roots so important for hemlock largely intact in the beginning.
I agree that Anderson flats are really useful and pure pumice is the way to go. If available the newer style deep Anderson flats are an improvement with the added depth and smaller width. Particularly useful for Yamadori. Conifers can use the extra depth compared to most deciduous trees. One can always simply fill the flat less if desired.
If using pure pumice adjust fertilizer use to compensate for lack of cation exchange capacity!

 

[stu929]

The repot is best staged over time with Hemlock. there are several options. My favourite is remove part of the bottom and outside at first. Then work on segments in successive repots. Divide the root ball up like a pie with six slices and do alternate segments the second repot, and the remaining segments the final repot.
One other tip is to target the weakest segments first, using the stronger areas to aid recovery, then when the next set is done the tree has new vital sections of roots to aid the next recovery.
The first repot is great to reduce height of root ball overall with the bottom dealt with and the outside edges allow for teasing out some roots to encourage new growth. This approach also leaves the surface fine roots so important for hemlock largely intact in the beginning.
I agree that Anderson flats are really useful and pure pumice is the way to go. If available the newer style deep Anderson flats are an improvement with the added depth and smaller width. Particularly useful for Yamadori. Conifers can use the extra depth compared to most deciduous trees. One can always simply fill the flat less if desired.
If using pure pumice adjust fertilizer use to compensate for lack of cation exchange capacity!

Would there be something that you would recommend to amend the Pumice? I asked about pure pumice as this will be going into a large box and I dont want to use all my boons mix for this. I do happen to have 3 bags of pure pumice from the black Friday sale though.

 

[ghues]

Others have given you some good advice, especially in regards to getting it much healthier before any major work. It appears that it was grown in a very organic soil, probably peat moss and wood chips, which is vey anaerobic and thus you might see a lot of dead roots when you repot.
Pure pumice works really well but we all have our favourite mixes, personally I add a small amount of organic material (sifted Seasoil).
I also agree about keeping those interior branches/branchlets as much as possible. You could remove all the dead branches now.
Good luck.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Pure pumice is good.

Pumice & some akadama (or some Boon's mix) is very good.

Pumice and pine or fir bark, I prefer douglas fir bark, orchid seedling size, 1/8 to 1/4 inch particles. This is a "pretty good" mix. I have used it often, still do for trees in training. It is important to sift to remove fines.

Pumice & Diatomaceous earth - good only if you can get a grade of diatomaceous earth that IS THE SAME PARTICLE SIZE as your pumice. The DE that comes as Napa 8822 is quite fine, and is only good if mixed with a similar fine size pumice. Mixing a coarse pumice with a fine particle DE will create problems for you. Don't do it.

You can use anything you want, hemlock like anything from a moist soil as used for Japanese maples to a fairly open mix as used for pines. They like more moisture than pines, so if you use a pine mix keep an eye on watering.

Hemlock are known to be active mycorrhizal symbionts. I recommend using an organic fertilizer at least a few times a year to provide some organics for the mycorrhiza to eat. Especially if you use pure pumice. If you use a pumice & bark mix, the bark will feed the mycorrhiza, no need to use an organic fertilizer.

I generally use chemical fertilizers as my main fertilizer program. I only occasionally add a dose of organic fertilizer, and primarily to trees in all inert inorganic media like 100% pumice.

 

[River's Edge]

Would there be something that you would recommend to amend the Pumice? I asked about pure pumice as this will be going into a large box and I dont want to use all my boons mix for this. I do happen to have 3 bags of pure pumice from the black Friday sale though.

Pumice is very moisture retentive so if amending I would seek to create more air space or more CEC. If more economical choices are your favoured direction than I would consider grit or lava sifted to size, this would maintain air space and reduce moisture retention. For increased CEC without a higher level of moisture retention I would use Akadama. For best results limit any organic addition to 5 % of the overall and also sift to similar size as the other components.

 

[stu929]

Pumice is very moisture retentive so if amending I would seek to create more air space or more CEC. If more economical choices are your favoured direction than I would consider grit or lava sifted to size, this would maintain air space and reduce moisture retention. For increased CEC without a higher level of moisture retention I would use Akadama. For best results limit any organic addition to 5 % of the overall and also sift to similar size as the other components.

Okay so this winter I'll be building flats and prepping for spring.

Last question for a little bit. I know someone published a chart had has moisture returning and CEC listed and rated by the different types of media. I believe it was in an excel spreadsheet. Does anyone know who that was or where I might find it ?

I hate to go the economical route but since I will be reporting a handful of trees I will likely have to make some consessions. Maybe I can cut a little bit of boons mix in with the pumice unless I find a decent source of lava. I know shale is sometimes used as well and I'm in a state completely made of shale but the random shape and size of shale may not make it optimal. I will do so more research and pray I can find another affordable media to mix in.

Thank you again.