carbon and soil questions

eferguson1974

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Not long ago I found a bag of "carbon for the garden", translated from spanish. Its a fine black powder. Ive always heard carbon is an important building block if life and all life on earth is carbon based. So does anyone know what its function is? Is it like a vitamin? And would a little help my trees? I mixed it into some garden soils I bought. One has lots of pieces of wood, rice husks, and other organic stuff. One is called "super soil", again translated, that is black and full of micronutrients plus NPK. Also I mixed in some worm castings. It looks and feels great for veggies, my intended use is in wicking beds and in buckets/pots to plant peppers, lettuce, squash and so on. But would trees be happy in this mix for growing out? If I understand the perched water table concept, they should be ok in two gallon buckets I buy for $.25 each, super cheap. Anyway I know this mix wont work in a shallow pot. Would it be ok for trees? Thanks for any experienced or informed answers..
 

sorce

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It should have a high CEC rating, so it will hold fert well...

But I wouldn't use it for trees...

The chunkier, or pelletized fish tank carbon is better in pots.

Throw it in the tires.

Sorce
 

rockm

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Not long ago I found a bag of "carbon for the garden", translated from spanish. Its a fine black powder. Ive always heard carbon is an important building block if life and all life on earth is carbon based. So does anyone know what its function is? Is it like a vitamin? And would a little help my trees? I mixed it into some garden soils I bought. One has lots of pieces of wood, rice husks, and other organic stuff. One is called "super soil", again translated, that is black and full of micronutrients plus NPK. Also I mixed in some worm castings. It looks and feels great for veggies, my intended use is in wicking beds and in buckets/pots to plant peppers, lettuce, squash and so on. But would trees be happy in this mix for growing out? If I understand the perched water table concept, they should be ok in two gallon buckets I buy for $.25 each, super cheap. Anyway I know this mix wont work in a shallow pot. Would it be ok for trees? Thanks for any experienced or informed answers..

It can help, but nothing you buy is a "miracle." According to the guy in the interview below, it acts much the same as other porous materials we already use in bonsai...so even at .25 per bucket, you could save .50 if you don't add it to your bonsai soil

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89562594
 

eferguson1974

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Ok I wont add it to my trees. I got it to put in the veggie garden wicking beds and buckets. Id like to know the function of carbon tho. Just to learn from. Its too fine for a bonsai pot. So back to the garden plan. I will put a couple trees in the wicking beds, again to learn. I have some in aquaponics that are happy, another learning experiance/experiment.
Sorce, some of it may end up in tires. I have a few I use as raised beds, so maybe its a good idea to add some. Im thinking of ordering a prefab tiny house ($2500, built) and using the tire house as a greenhouse. It has a plastic roof already, with shade cloth. It was an experiment. It lets in a lot of light but is hot and not durable at all. And putting a real roof on it would cost as much as a little prefab house. That would give me a lot more room to grow veggies to sell. It would be cheap, I can move my sinks and toilet, and the breaker box with most of the wires too. Id leave an outlet or two and two light bulbs. That way I can garden or play bonsai in the night or rain. Your welcome to come help install everything. For the septic tank, I will dig a deep enough hole and put- you guessed it- tires. The one I have now works like a charm. I like the idea of more veggies and bonsai space..and the little prefab house would be easier to keep clean and maintain. Outside I will/would hang all my wall mount pots, covering the cement walls with life like the tire walls I have now. Anywho, thats the current idea.
 

eferguson1974

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I know lots of other things about carbon ;)
Such as? Care to share some wisdom with the class?
My grandfather and uncle had a high precision machine shop, where they made pump seals that are not shelf items. Seals for the Savannah Ga nuclear bomb factory, and for super hot rubber used for tires, all kinds of stuff. They got carbon barstock and made seals with polished surfaces out of it. I dont remember what the carbon seals were for, but they were machined on a lathe left just for carbon because it made dust, no chips like metal. Expensive stuff, for sure.
After using/mixing this bagged stuff, I did find some chunks the size of my soil more or less. Im gonna see what happens with some in a pot. Its like the aquarium filter size or bigger by a little. I bet it makes little no change in growth but will try just to find out.
 

Cypress187

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I'm sorry I mentioned it, it was not to be taken literally it was only a tiny reference to some other form of carbon, I promised some people not to talk about it anymore on the forum.
 

eferguson1974

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Its all good, Idk what your talking about, but its ok. The "such as" was sorta a joke anyway, just a natural response to egg you on. I figured it wasnt mentionable on the Nut forum..
 

wireme

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Not long ago I found a bag of "carbon for the garden", translated from spanish. Its a fine black powder. Ive always heard carbon is an important building block if life and all life on earth is carbon based. So does anyone know what its function is? Is it like a vitamin? And would a little help my trees? I mixed it into some garden soils I bought. One has lots of pieces of wood, rice husks, and other organic stuff. One is called "super soil", again translated, that is black and full of micronutrients plus NPK. Also I mixed in some worm castings. It looks and feels great for veggies, my intended use is in wicking beds and in buckets/pots to plant peppers, lettuce, squash and so on. But would trees be happy in this mix for growing out? If I understand the perched water table concept, they should be ok in two gallon buckets I buy for $.25 each, super cheap. Anyway I know this mix wont work in a shallow pot. Would it be ok for trees? Thanks for any experienced or informed answers..

"Carbon for the Garden"?
Not a lot to go on there, I wonder if it is a humic product of some kind, I think humic acid products are high in carbon like 40-70 percent maybe?

I have this bag of black powder that is a humic product, I don't know a lot about it, I wing it and toss a small handful into the fertilizer barrel when mixing liquid ferts. image.jpgimage.jpg
 

PiñonJ

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Ive always heard carbon is an important building block if life and all life on earth is carbon based. So does anyone know what its function is? Is it like a vitamin?

Well, at least you asked a simple question! :rolleyes: Carbon atoms form the backbone of most of the important molecules in our bodies (and in plants). Proteins, which mainly form structural elements and enzymes, are polypeptides, which are repeating chains of amino acids, which are made of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. Sugars are ring molecules made of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. They can be used for energy, or as components of other molecules, such as DNA and RNA. Lipids are long chains of carbon and hydrogen attached to a variety of possible molecules at the head of the chain. They are the major component of cell membranes and can also be stored as fat and metabolized for energy. All of these types of molecules can be used in other ways, as well.
 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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Google "Bio-char"

Charcoal has long been used as a soil additive. I've seen photos from Japan, I believe on either Peter Tea's blog or Bjorn Bjornholm's blog or both of trees in Japan, in several well known master's gardens with chunks of charcoal as part of the mix. It is not a "fertilizer" or "nutrient" per se but it does help create a healthy soil environment. As mentioned in the Science Friday podcast, it provides good habitat for soil microbiota including mycorrhiza. It also has CEC capacity, holding nutrients that will be released later when soil moisture nutrient concentration is low. The list of benefits are long, but they are not dramatic or "miraculous". Using charcoal won't necessarily make obvious improvements in tree's health at least initially. But over the long run, you may find trees more resilient.

Also the podcast does suggest a "dose rate" that I've heard before, up to about 5%. In my epiphyte mixes for orchids I use up to about 20% coarse charcoal, the chunks are about 3/8 inch. I have attempted using 100% charcoal as an orchid media, and that was not good, too much a good thing is bad. :rolleyes:

Accidentally I've had tree seed germinate in my orchid media and the roots of the tree seedlings adhere to the charcoal bits quite nicely. So a 20% charcoal mix with fir bark and perlite works fine for Norway maple seedlings, and buckthorn seedlings. But buckthorn could grow in old tires for that matter. But it is clear somewhere around 5 % to as much as 20% will be tolerated or enjoyed by most trees, I think the suggested 5% might be a good start for a bonsai mix. Problem would be sourcing charcoal (or bio-char) that is in the same particle size range as the other components of your potting mix would be the most important factor in choosing a source. Particles that are finer than your other components will reduce air voids in your mix, and particles larger than the average for your mix will "float" up in your mix, putting them on the surface where they don't benefit the roots much at all.

When I sift my horticultural charcoal (#3 size in 50 pound bags) I save the fines, sift them again to retain the ones that are between 1/8 and 1/4 inch and blend them into my bonsai mixes. I seldom get enough to use at more than a couple percent, I need to repot my orchids more frequently to have more charcoal for the bonsai. So while I use it, I might not be using it at an effective rate. I used to get #4 size hort charcoal, which was 1/8th to 1/4 inch, a good match for my bonsai mix, but my orchid supplies vendor stopped carrying that size.

Charcoal, hardwood charcoal for backyard cooking, horticultural charcoal, & bio-char are all pretty much just charcoal, except charcoal briquettes which are coal dust that has been compacted & "glued" and formed into the pillow shapes you see in the bag of briquettes. Charcoal should still show signs of the wood grain of the wood it was made from. Coal, while it is plant based carbon, has lost the fine cellular structure of wood and is not useful for horticulture purposes. Bio-char is often made by a less precise (hence cheaper) process, and often will have chunks that still have some wood left, where the carbonization process was not completed. In terms of supporting soil microbiota this is actually a good thing. Many bonsai mixes contain fir bark - this is basically "wood", if your biochar has enough of a woody component you can skip the fir bark in your mix and up the biochar content to cover the percentage of both the charcoal and fir bark components.

I've now shared most the "practical" knowledge I have about biochar, and charcoal. I have a few details in reserve, none of it useful knowledge. ;).
 

eferguson1974

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Google "Bio-char"

Charcoal has long been used as a soil additive. I've seen photos from Japan, I believe on either Peter Tea's blog or Bjorn Bjornholm's blog or both of trees in Japan, in several well known master's gardens with chunks of charcoal as part of the mix. It is not a "fertilizer" or "nutrient" per se but it does help create a healthy soil environment. As mentioned in the Science Friday podcast, it provides good habitat for soil microbiota including mycorrhiza. It also has CEC capacity, holding nutrients that will be released later when soil moisture nutrient concentration is low. The list of benefits are long, but they are not dramatic or "miraculous". Using charcoal won't necessarily make obvious improvements in tree's health at least initially. But over the long run, you may find trees more resilient.

Also the podcast does suggest a "dose rate" that I've heard before, up to about 5%. In my epiphyte mixes for orchids I use up to about 20% coarse charcoal, the chunks are about 3/8 inch. I have attempted using 100% charcoal as an orchid media, and that was not good, too much a good thing is bad. :rolleyes:

Accidentally I've had tree seed germinate in my orchid media and the roots of the tree seedlings adhere to the charcoal bits quite nicely. So a 20% charcoal mix with fir bark and perlite works fine for Norway maple seedlings, and buckthorn seedlings. But buckthorn could grow in old tires for that matter. But it is clear somewhere around 5 % to as much as 20% will be tolerated or enjoyed by most trees, I think the suggested 5% might be a good start for a bonsai mix. Problem would be sourcing charcoal (or bio-char) that is in the same particle size range as the other components of your potting mix would be the most important factor in choosing a source. Particles that are finer than your other components will reduce air voids in your mix, and particles larger than the average for your mix will "float" up in your mix, putting them on the surface where they don't benefit the roots much at all.

When I sift my horticultural charcoal (#3 size in 50 pound bags) I save the fines, sift them again to retain the ones that are between 1/8 and 1/4 inch and blend them into my bonsai mixes. I seldom get enough to use at more than a couple percent, I need to repot my orchids more frequently to have more charcoal for the bonsai. So while I use it, I might not be using it at an effective rate. I used to get #4 size hort charcoal, which was 1/8th to 1/4 inch, a good match for my bonsai mix, but my orchid supplies vendor stopped carrying that size.

Charcoal, hardwood charcoal for backyard cooking, horticultural charcoal, & bio-char are all pretty much just charcoal, except charcoal briquettes which are coal dust that has been compacted & "glued" and formed into the pillow shapes you see in the bag of briquettes. Charcoal should still show signs of the wood grain of the wood it was made from. Coal, while it is plant based carbon, has lost the fine cellular structure of wood and is not useful for horticulture purposes. Bio-char is often made by a less precise (hence cheaper) process, and often will have chunks that still have some wood left, where the carbonization process was not completed. In terms of supporting soil microbiota this is actually a good thing. Many bonsai mixes contain fir bark - this is basically "wood", if your biochar has enough of a woody component you can skip the fir bark in your mix and up the biochar content to cover the percentage of both the charcoal and fir bark components.

I've now shared most the "practical" knowledge I have about biochar, and charcoal. I have a few details in reserve, none of it useful knowledge. ;).
Well that does pretty much answer my questions! And I learned something, so thank you! I guess I had the wrong idea, thinking carbon in the soil would be absorbed by the tree and uses to make more wood. Being a basic building block of life, I figured that was its purpose. I know that squashes here love ashes from cooking fires. We had a plant volunteer out of our ash pile and it was huge. Truly huge. And produced a bumper crop. So it is at least agreable with plants.
I ended up mixing it into my veggie soil starter mix, for growing healthy young plants before going into aquaponics or wicking beds. I will probably get more to put in the wicking beds. They are mostly for veggies, but I will be putting trees in them too, for growing out. WBs are probably great for trees, and I will use a plate under them so the roots are good for bonsai but also wont put holes in the plastic liner. If you dont know about WBs, theyre said to be superior to planting in the ground for a lot of reasons. Carbon will probably be a good thing to add, and is cheap. I use a soil made mostly of little wood chips, another thats a black compost "super" soil, worm castings, and the carbon, at maybe 15% or more or less, and plants grow very well. All organic, Im not into chemicals for plants or trees. I used up my last bit of seaweed fert today on my sticks in pots. I hope to get fish base d fert again, if I can find it. I have to clean my aquaponics filters, and always do it over my WB. Fish poo is awesome too. The AP uses it for ferts, and the filter gets full of good stuff for plants. Fish poo, added that way, doesnt burn plants. Judging by the AP, its great plant food. The WB I have now has worms I added too, improving the soil in their own way. My yard is hard clay, so veggies dont like it at all. Trees do grow in it but I have often wondered if the local black soil is much better. For coffee it is better, for yucca (not the desert succulent type, its an edible root crop like potatoes) the clay is said to be better. So its hard to say with trees. My patch of jungle has all clay soil with the natural compost of the forest floor. I think my mix is much better than either of the local soils. It should have everything a plant or tree could ask for....
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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For what it is worth, wood ash has relatively little carbon, the carbon was burned off, it was the fuel for the fire. Wood ash is the minerals left after burning away the wood (cellulose & Lignins), wood ash is a lot of the nutrients plants need, in the proportions the plants need. Except nitrogen, some nitrogen is lost due to it forming volitile combustion products (various nitrous oxides) during burning of wood.

Wood ash comtains a lot of silicates, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, potassium, sulfur, copper, boron, and the whole list of micro nutrients. So it makes sense it acts as a fertilizer, because it is. Be cautious with wood ash, too much a good thing can ''burn'' the plants. Many of the minerals are in oxide or hydroxide forms, so wood ash tends to be very alkaline and will harm acid loving plants like azalea and guava.

Wood ash used to be used to make lye, which was used to tan leather, and make soap. So when I say alkaline I do mean potentially quite alkaline. Rain will leach out the hydroxides, so aading wood ash to compost works well.
 
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eferguson1974

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Well this thread has surely taught me some good things! Thanks for explaining! I guess I should build a fire and burn some fallen branches, and weeds. Then toss some ashes in my soil, but not too much. Maybe 5%? 10%? Or I can get ashes from cooking fires. You wouldnt believe how many people still cook with fire here, poor and rich. The flavor cant be beat!! It may give you cancer of the guts or something, but hey, gotta die of something..
Everything you said (all of you) makes sense and does help. I actually use the advice I get here, where and when its possible. I think my wicking beds are going to have happy trees, and because of what I learn here all my trees are happy and healthy. So, thanks to all who help me!!!!!
 
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