Care for a Pinus Contorta

QuintinBonsai

Chumono
Messages
529
Reaction score
21
Location
San Diego, CA
USDA Zone
10
I got a really cool yamadori lodgepole pine, and wanted to know some general care about them. Am I to assume they are the same as caring for a JBP?

It just got delivered today, and so far I haven't done anything to it. I love the rugged, jagged look of the bark, and the movement of the trunk. I see that it has a lot of branches that don't have any needles. Maybe these could be jinned at some point, but it is my understanding that this is how pines normally look in the wild.

I'd like a request for some future styling options. I know there are several possibilities, but I'd like to hear the opinions of the the B-Nut community.

shorepine1.jpgshorepine2.jpgshorepine3.jpgshorepine4.jpgshorepine5.jpg
 

Dan W.

Omono
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Wyoming
USDA Zone
4
Your tree looks like it has some nice potential. Do you happen to know which subspecies this is? Pinus Contorta...contorta/murryana/latifolia/or bolanderi?

If you know where it was collected this link may help you figure it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodgepole_Pine

I only have a bit of experience with Pinus contorta latifolia, (the Rocky Mountain version) and I would treat it like a white pine instead of JBP. -- But, I do believe they treat Pinus contorta contorta (Shore Pine) like JBP.

I don't really know anything about the others. I know other members, especially form the north west, have experience with shore pine.

Good luck! :)
 

QuintinBonsai

Chumono
Messages
529
Reaction score
21
Location
San Diego, CA
USDA Zone
10
Okay so I just got in contact with the seller, and says it was collected in Mammoth Lakes, CA.
 
Last edited:

Dan W.

Omono
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Wyoming
USDA Zone
4
Ok, so that rules out latifolia... lol

Hopefully someone will jump in who has experience with these other contorta's. I think Eric, Vic or g52 would be a good place to start; and maybe JasonG if he's still around.
 

PaulH

Omono
Messages
1,809
Reaction score
4,453
Location
Rescue, CA
I've collected several of these at Mammoth. We get permits to collect right on and around the ski area. A lot of these trees have incredibly contorted trunks from the heavy snow load the endure every winter. This subspecies is murrayana.
I wouldn't recommend doing any work or repotting until at least 3-4 years after collection. I've learned not to mess with mine until they are healthy enought to start back-budding vigorously.
I treat mine the same as my Scots pines, i.e. don't cut candles as with black pines but reduce new growth as needed. These bud back very well with lots of food, water, and sun.
Plant in a good, well draining bonsai mix. I use akadama, pumice. and lava in equal parts. Newly collected trees are planted in pure pumice. The soil they are growing in at Mammoth is pure white pumice so the are usually dug with good root systems.
(We usually bring back a few bags of pumice when we go to Mammoth.)
Lodgepole branches are very flexible and difficult to set in position. It is necessary to wire repeatedly for an number of years allowing the wire to to set well into the branch to get the branches to stay put. Some people I know deliberately scar the branches by removing strips of bark on the bottom sides to help set the branches in position.
Paul
 

bonsaibp

Omono
Messages
1,560
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Northridge CA
USDA Zone
10a
I'd follow Paul's advice about not doing anything for awhile. There's a big difference between where the tree came from and where you are so let the tree aclimate first before you think of a style.
 

QuintinBonsai

Chumono
Messages
529
Reaction score
21
Location
San Diego, CA
USDA Zone
10
Thanks. The seller says it was collected in the fall of 2010, so I'll give it a couple of years before bothering it. What do use to feed yours, & is there a certain time of the year that feeding these should be done?

Btw, I've been curious about collecting trees from the wild. I don't have the experience in doing it, nor am I keeping my head in the clouds about trying to do it. Say if one wanted to go, and collect a tree, how do you apply for a permit? What tools would I be advised to bring?
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Thanks. The seller says it was collected in the fall of 2010, so I'll give it a couple of years before bothering it. What do use to feed yours, & is there a certain time of the year that feeding these should be done?

Btw, I've been curious about collecting trees from the wild. I don't have the experience in doing it, nor am I keeping my head in the clouds about trying to do it. Say if one wanted to go, and collect a tree, how do you apply for a permit? What tools would I be advised to bring?

I think it would be safe to start cutting back growth.
 

Attila Soos

Omono
Messages
1,804
Reaction score
54
Location
Los Angeles (Altadena), CA
USDA Zone
9
It would be a great mistake to train this tree, using Japanese Black Pine (or Red Pine) techniques.

Japanese Black pine is a low elevation tree, that has a very long growing season. Because of the long growth season, it has multiple growth flushes. It grows large candles, and if you cut those down before the end of summer, it grows another flush of candles. If you cut the candles earlier, you can even have more than two flushes of growth, especially if you live in a warmer climate.

Pinus contorta has a different growth habit. Because of the short growing season, it does not have the capacity to continuously push out new growth. So, I would treat it like the Japanese White Pine. This means no complete candle removal. You have to waint until the new growth hardens, and then remove PART of the new growth, thus leaving some new growth on it. If you cut off the entire new growth, and don't leave any of it, you will exhaust the tree and possibly kill the branch. Instead of encouraging back-budding, you put the tree into a constant low-energy state, where it barely survives.

So, if you want this tree to thrive, you need to keep on as much new growth as possible, while selectively prune certain branches, to encourage back-budding.
Japanese Black Pine can take a lot of abuse, because it is a very vigorous tree. This one can take much less of it.

BTW, I do not own this species, so I am NOT talking from personal experience. But I am very interested in training various species of pines, so I am trying to learn about them as much as possible. So, I am stating the teachings of those who work with P. Contorta and other species with similar growth habits.

This is the problems we are having here in North America, when it comes to bonsai. We have plenty of ideas, but we did not yet develop standardized techniques for all these native pines that we can collect. I know that some veterans have a vast kowledge about these pines, and collect and cultivate them successfully, but the general bonsai hobbyist has no idea how to treat them.
The Japanese have developed standard techniques for each pine species they grow. You can find those techniques in every bonsai book. Here in America, we aren't that far down the line yet. We should have books written on all the native pines, and easy-to-understand standard techniques on each of them. But we don't. And this is a HUGE limitation for us. I know that we have a tiny Ponderosa book...that very few people know about. But that's about it.

So, by and large, WE HAVE NO IDEA what to do with these wonderful trees.
We don't even have a Mugo book, for goodness' sake. Neither we have a Redwood, or a California Juniper book, which is beyond comprehension. We have a long way to go, before we start understanding how to grow these trees. We can, of course, keep them alive and reasonably healthy, but that is way to little. When doing bonsai, we need to keep these trees in their most vigorous and radiant state, because that's when they respond to bonsai techniques. "Reasonably healthy" will not cut it, and only leads to failures.

Anyway, enough of my rantings....
 
Last edited:

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,500
Reaction score
12,872
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
But why can a 'community' of pros and enthusiasts not get organized to do some bonsai-specific horticultural research? Why is Vance Wood the only guy in the US that knows anything about Mugo pines, for example? He certainly isn't the only enthusiast looking for answers, but he sure seems to be the only one that went to work making answers for Mugos. Why is advancing American bonsai boil down to debating whether Ryan Neil is as good and he thinks he is?

Seems to me that members of this forum, for example, could make a list of what they want to know (e.g., can I decandle/defoliate?). Given these factors, a designed experiment could be defined to get good answers. Participants (probably by climate and/or region of the country) buy a few trees of the species and execute their experiment assignments. Everyone reports on their results, with pictures of the tree-progressions. Really not too different from what goes on here, except for having a set of defined and organized group objectives.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
But why can a 'community' of pros and enthusiasts not get organized to do some bonsai-specific horticultural research? Why is Vance Wood the only guy in the US that knows anything about Mugo pines, for example? He certainly isn't the only enthusiast looking for answers, but he sure seems to be the only one that went to work making answers for Mugos. Why is advancing American bonsai boil down to debating whether Ryan Neil is as good and he thinks he is?

Seems to me that members of this forum, for example, could make a list of what they want to know (e.g., can I decandle/defoliate?). Given these factors, a designed experiment could be defined to get good answers. Participants (probably by climate and/or region of the country) buy a few trees of the species and execute their experiment assignments. Everyone reports on their results, with pictures of the tree-progressions. Really not too different from what goes on here, except for having a set of defined and organized group objectives.

It is really like a scientific experiment. The results must be repeatable by some other person or persons or the results are flawed for some reason. I have experimented with Mugo Pine, Scots Pine, Hinoki Cypress, and Shimpaku Junipers. It has been my findings that all of these trees can be repotted successfully in the heat of summer with no problems. I have been pilloried for these positions on more than one occasion but I can not or will not change the facts as I know them. These are the things you run into. It is however encouraging that people are finally realizing that there is more than one two-needled-Pine in the world and they do not all respond the same way as the JBP.
 

bonsaibp

Omono
Messages
1,560
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Northridge CA
USDA Zone
10a
It is really like a scientific experiment. The results must be repeatable by some other person or persons or the results are flawed for some reason. I have experimented with Mugo Pine, Scots Pine, Hinoki Cypress, and Shimpaku Junipers. It has been my findings that all of these trees can be repotted successfully in the heat of summer with no problems. I have been pilloried for these positions on more than one occasion but I can not or will not change the facts as I know them. These are the things you run into. It is however encouraging that people are finally realizing that there is more than one two-needled-Pine in the world and they do not all respond the same way as the JBP.
Too bad more people aren't willing to experiment and share the results of those experiments like you do. But it's not that easy, not only must the results be repeated by other people but also in various locations as well. Living in Michigan I'm sure has a lot to do being able to transplant those trees in the heat of summer as well as your technique. I couldn't do it here. Hell I can't even grow any of them except the Shimpaku. No winter and really hot summers see to that. But I can transplant deciduous trees in January, some even in December. Lots of people are quick to tell me how wrong that is but there are so many variables that there usually is more then one or two ways to do something. Like your summer repotting, the fact is that this works for me. Thats one of the biggest reasons local teachers, clubs etc. are so important. Things like timing for doing certain things like repotting etc. can vary by months depending on location.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Too bad more people aren't willing to experiment and share the results of those experiments like you do. But it's not that easy, not only must the results be repeated by other people but also in various locations as well. Living in Michigan I'm sure has a lot to do being able to transplant those trees in the heat of summer as well as your technique. I couldn't do it here. Hell I can't even grow any of them except the Shimpaku. No winter and really hot summers see to that. But I can transplant deciduous trees in January, some even in December. Lots of people are quick to tell me how wrong that is but there are so many variables that there usually is more then one or two ways to do something. Like your summer repotting, the fact is that this works for me. Thats one of the biggest reasons local teachers, clubs etc. are so important. Things like timing for doing certain things like repotting etc. can vary by months depending on location.

I think you may have a misimpression of what Michigan summers can be like. Most of the trees I repotted this summer were repotted with the temperatures in the 90's where those temperatures persisted well into early September. They have all survived, and flourished. I don't think temperature has a thing to do with it, I am now convinced that it is a point in the growing cycle.
 

bonsaibp

Omono
Messages
1,560
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Northridge CA
USDA Zone
10a
You're right I had no idea it got that hot. I know people here who have had limited success with repotting native oaks in August as they go kind of dormant in the heat. Are we talking about repotting from bonsai pot to bonsai pot or the first major reduction of a rootball?
I know that I heard about other people transplanting Mugo's in the summer but since I can't grow them I never paid much attention. I may need to experiment with Shimpaku. Have you done any other junipers at that time?
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
You're right I had no idea it got that hot. I know people here who have had limited success with repotting native oaks in August as they go kind of dormant in the heat. Are we talking about repotting from bonsai pot to bonsai pot or the first major reduction of a rootball?
I know that I heard about other people transplanting Mugo's in the summer but since I can't grow them I never paid much attention. I may need to experiment with Shimpaku. Have you done any other junipers at that time?

According to Yoshimura's book you can do all Junipers any time except mid winter when the soil is frozen. Personally I don't make recommendations on anything I have not had first or second hand experience with.

I would like to add this one point: I don't think the secret of transplanting or repotting is so much an issue of finding when the tree is dormant; which is the standard litany, as it is to finding that point when the tree is active and in the feeding cycle, like a bear building up reserves before it goes into hibernation.
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,500
Reaction score
12,872
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
Seems to me that members of this forum, for example, could make a list of what they want to know (e.g., can I decandle/defoliate?). Given these factors, a designed experiment could be defined to get good answers. Participants (probably by climate and/or region of the country) buy a few trees of the species and execute their experiment assignments. Everyone reports on their results, with pictures of the tree-progressions. Really not too different from what goes on here, except for having a set of defined and organized group objectives.

The results must be repeatable by some other person or persons or the results are flawed for some reason.

... not only must the results be repeated by other people but also in various locations as well.

So, guys, what I am suggesting is that this be done in parallel instead of serially/haphazzardly.

I think you may have a misimpression of what Michigan summers can be like. Most of the trees I repotted this summer were repotted with the temperatures in the 90's where those temperatures persisted well into early September. They have all survived, and flourished. I don't think temperature has a thing to do with it, I am now convinced that it is a point in the growing cycle.

I agree, I don't think it is the temperature either. My wife brought it to my attention a few years ago that all her garden perennials go 'dormant' in August/September. We have dug and moved large roses in bloom this time of year, for example. Temperatures are typically only about 80F here at that time.

I have been idly speculating that this might be the time of year that trees abruptly switch from forming early wood to producing late wood. I figure that I should be able to confirm/refute this notion from scholarly works, but so far I haven't found anything. But, I really haven't been searching all that intently yet.

Digging/repotting would rip off all the root hairs (extensions of single cells on the epidermis of the root, not far behind the growing tip), so it doesn't make sense to me that trees would be feeding heavily at the time - just the opposite.

Back to my original point: Might there be BNuts, each willing to buy 3 to 5 cheap trident maple saplings, say, that they will repot (by combing out the roots and planting in new soil or per a better definition by the participants) ca. 31 August 2013, say? They would report on how their saplings responded going into fall and again mid-season 2014. Might another group do likewise with Japanese maples, another with JBP, another with Ponderosa, another with blue spruce, another with a juniper cultivar, another with lodge poles, another with _____?

Its just an example what-if. The agonizing thing about 'bonsai' is that one gets to try something only once a year (i.e., the 'learning cycle' is an entire calendar year!). The only way to cram this down into what remains of my lifetime is to do as many things in parallel as I possibly can. As Brent Walston advised = buy hundreds of plants. My problem is that I don't have the space for hundreds of trees. My notion is that maybe there are 20 or so other BNuts with similar, bonsai-oriented horticultural interests. If each of us had ca. 5, we would collectively have a hundred. But its becoming clear to me that this is just trying to herd cats.

Enjoy the holidays.
 

Dan W.

Omono
Messages
1,615
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Wyoming
USDA Zone
4
I would be willing to do this with material that thrives in WY. But I suggest we start a new thread so as not to over-run this one any more. :)
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
I would be willing to do this with material that thrives in WY. But I suggest we start a new thread so as not to over-run this one any more. :)

You really can't base anything like this on anything less than around ten years research. I started coming to my conclusions about five years after I had continually done major root work on them at club demonstrations and similar events. It took five years to convince me that I was on to something, and another five before I was confident enough to start telling people that this is the time of year you should repot Mugo Pines and Scots Pines.

As for me I am hesitant to go much further about Mugos. For those who are interested you might want to check out the site Bonsai4me under the heading of Mugo Pines. What is published there is almost word for word from an article I published at Art of Bonsai and its sister site. In short I am really kind of reluctant to get ripped off further until I am able to publish.
 
Top Bottom