Care for a Pinus Contorta

[Klytus]

Thanks for shearing?

 

[BigDave]

Seems to me that members of this forum, for example, could make a list of what they want to know (e.g., can I decandle/defoliate?). Given these factors, a designed experiment could be defined to get good answers. Participants (probably by climate and/or region of the country) buy a few trees of the species and execute their experiment assignments. Everyone reports on their results, with pictures of the tree-progressions.

Mr. Osoyoung , you sir are an idea man, I will throw in with your experiment if you will lead it.

 

[daygan]

...
Back to my original point: Might there be BNuts, each willing to buy 3 to 5 cheap trident maple saplings, say, that they will repot (by combing out the roots and planting in new soil or per a better definition by the participants) ca. 31 August 2013, say? They would report on how their saplings responded going into fall and again mid-season 2014. Might another group do likewise with Japanese maples, another with JBP, another with Ponderosa, another with blue spruce, another with a juniper cultivar, another with lodge poles, another with _____?
...

It's with this very spirit of experimentation and hope that others could offer similar experimentational knowledge that I started that thread on collecting oaks. I'd certainly be interested in experimenting with species that I can find in China easily. What shall we do first?

 

[ghues]

Great stuff Attila .......Why can't we use our regional bonsai associations AGM 's ....start a database of the proven results from the "local elders"?
G
quote=Attila Soos;121788]It would be a great mistake to train this tree, using Japanese Black Pine (or Red Pine) techniques.

Japanese Black pine is a low elevation tree, that has a very long growing season. Because of the long growth season, it has multiple growth flushes. It grows large candles, and if you cut those down before the end of summer, it grows another flush of candles. If you cut the candles earlier, you can even have more than two flushes of growth, especially if you live in a warmer climate.

Pinus contorta has a different growth habit. Because of the short growing season, it does not have the capacity to continuously push out new growth. So, I would treat it like the Japanese White Pine. This means no complete candle removal. You have to waint until the new growth hardens, and then remove PART of the new growth, thus leaving some new growth on it. If you cut off the entire new growth, and don't leave any of it, you will exhaust the tree and possibly kill the branch. Instead of encouraging back-budding, you put the tree into a constant low-energy state, where it barely survives.

So, if you want this tree to thrive, you need to keep on as much new growth as possible, while selectively prune certain branches, to encourage back-budding.
Japanese Black Pine can take a lot of abuse, because it is a very vigorous tree. This one can take much less of it.

BTW, I do not own this species, so I am NOT talking from personal experience. But I am very interested in training various species of pines, so I am trying to learn about them as much as possible. So, I am stating the teachings of those who work with P. Contorta and other species with similar growth habits.

This is the problems we are having here in North America, when it comes to bonsai. We have plenty of ideas, but we did not yet develop standardized techniques for all these native pines that we can collect. I know that some veterans have a vast kowledge about these pines, and collect and cultivate them successfully, but the general bonsai hobbyist has no idea how to treat them.
The Japanese have developed standard techniques for each pine species they grow. You can find those techniques in every bonsai book. Here in America, we aren't that far down the line yet. We should have books written on all the native pines, and easy-to-understand standard techniques on each of them. But we don't. And this is a HUGE limitation for us. I know that we have a tiny Ponderosa book...that very few people know about. But that's about it.

So, by and large, WE HAVE NO IDEA what to do with these wonderful trees.
We don't even have a Mugo book, for goodness' sake. Neither we have a Redwood, or a California Juniper book, which is beyond comprehension. We have a long way to go, before we start understanding how to grow these trees. We can, of course, keep them alive and reasonably healthy, but that is way to little. When doing bonsai, we need to keep these trees in their most vigorous and radiant state, because that's when they respond to bonsai techniques. "Reasonably healthy" will not cut it, and only leads to failures.

Anyway, enough of my rantings....[/QUOTE]

 

[dick benbow]

Lodge pole pine is the most common pine in the rockies. It is a two needle pine and is the only pine that normally bears buds under the bark. when wiring be sure to look for a discernable "bump".

It's common name came from it's use by the native americans to provide structure for their dwellings.

I have numerous relatives nick named shore pine that carries the name Pinus contorta contorta

 

[tom tynan]

I live in NY and have several and they do very well- extremely cold-hardy. My first concern is that you live in Zone 9 and not sure about how cold it gets in your area. They like it cold - and since they get the contorted shape from the wind, snow, etc. you can figure they like it very well. No problems with back budding at all - in fact you will find that as compared to many Pines (JBP, JWP, Ponderosa, JRP) they back bud the easiest. So no problems creating nice foliage pads/masses at all. With good sun and good pumice/lava mix - you get buds everywhere along the branches. Of course - they do not bud out on the trunk like a Pitch Pine. To me - they are most similar to a Scots Pine. My big concern for you (San Diego area ?) is how cold does it get and for how long.....good luck ...Tom

 

[Vance Wood]

I live in NY and have several and they do very well- extremely cold-hardy. My first concern is that you live in Zone 9 and not sure about how cold it gets in your area. They like it cold - and since they get the contorted shape from the wind, snow, etc. you can figure they like it very well. No problems with back budding at all - in fact you will find that as compared to many Pines (JBP, JWP, Ponderosa, JRP) they back bud the easiest. So no problems creating nice foliage pads/masses at all. With good sun and good pumice/lava mix - you get buds everywhere along the branches. Of course - they do not bud out on the trunk like a Pitch Pine. To me - they are most similar to a Scots Pine. My big concern for you (San Diego area ?) is how cold does it get and for how long.....good luck ...Tom

Hi Tom: Could you do me a favor and post a couple of photos of your Lodge Poles? I have always loved these trees but I lost the ones I had during my stint in the Army. I would love to see the kind of ramification you are getting with them. I hope you don't think I am trying to put you on the spot, I am not and please don't feel you have to post if this makes you uncomfortable.

 

[QuintinBonsai]

I live in NY and have several and they do very well- extremely cold-hardy. My first concern is that you live in Zone 9 and not sure about how cold it gets in your area. They like it cold - and since they get the contorted shape from the wind, snow, etc. you can figure they like it very well. No problems with back budding at all - in fact you will find that as compared to many Pines (JBP, JWP, Ponderosa, JRP) they back bud the easiest. So no problems creating nice foliage pads/masses at all. With good sun and good pumice/lava mix - you get buds everywhere along the branches. Of course - they do not bud out on the trunk like a Pitch Pine. To me - they are most similar to a Scots Pine. My big concern for you (San Diego area ?) is how cold does it get and for how long.....good luck ...Tom

SoCal has a reputation of being one hot and sunny mother of a place to live in. Our daytime winters are usually in the 60s, but it does in fact get pretty cold here at night. Temperatures can drop as low as the mid 30s depending on where you live. In Escondido, it's a city located within a valley with lots of mountains surrounding us. Our winter months don't last very long. Usually around March is when the temperatures start to rise.

 

[ghues]

Dear Intriguedbybonsai,
We have both Pinus contorta and Pinus contorta contorta up here in the PNW but our climate is much different than yours so I’d assume that the techniques might also be different. With care and fert the ones I have really back bud well and despite what Attila advised, I do remove the candle in the fall and get some great buds set up before our first frost hits. My mentors up here have been growing them for years and on their almost finished trees they prefer not to fertilize until well after bud set as they’ve found that fertilizing to early gives one too much lush growth.
I’m sure there must be other Californian’s out there that could provide you with proven methods for your specific area.
Good luck and I look forward to its progression.
Cheers Graham

 

[0soyoung]

Dear Intriguedbybonsai,
... they prefer not to fertilize until well after bud set as they’ve found that fertilizing to early gives one too much lush growth.

Ghues, if I am understanding correctly, this your shore pine regimen is:

To get short internode, one generally doesn't want to fertilize at the start of the season until the new shoots have hardened. I presume you do this and then you candle prune, waiting for the new buds to set before 'pouring the fertilizer to it' from bud set until frost/freeze induced dormancy.

In other words, the shore pine is fertilized only from late season bud set (Aug/Sep?) to dormancy (Nov/Dec?).

 

[QuintinBonsai]

Dear Intriguedbybonsai,
We have both Pinus contorta and Pinus contorta contorta up here in the PNW but our climate is much different than yours so I’d assume that the techniques might also be different. With care and fert the ones I have really back bud well and despite what Attila advised, I do remove the candle in the fall and get some great buds set up before our first frost hits. My mentors up here have been growing them for years and on their almost finished trees they prefer not to fertilize until well after bud set as they’ve found that fertilizing to early gives one too much lush growth.
I’m sure there must be other Californian’s out there that could provide you with proven methods for your specific area.
Good luck and I look forward to its progression.
Cheers Graham

There's a local nursery that deals in nothing but California native plants. While there I saw some P.Contorta Contortas, and several other pines. Though they are just young whips it gives me some assurance that northern native species can in fact grow here. Now is that to say that they will thrive here in SoCal as they would up north? Probably not. I guess the only way to really know is to at least try.

I figure as this much though, the person I purchased it from told me it was collected in the fall of 2010 at Mammoth Lakes. He lives in Los Angeles which has about the same climate zone as San Diego. For him to have had this pine for 2 years, and not have any health problems gives me a sign that it might be okay. I'll keep my fingers crossed, and keep you updated on how it progresses.

 

[Housguy]

I figure as this much though, the person I purchased it from told me it was collected in the fall of 2010 at Mammoth Lakes. He lives in Los Angeles which has about the same climate zone as San Diego. For him to have had this pine for 2 years, and not have any health problems gives me a sign that it might be okay. I'll keep my fingers crossed, and keep you updated on how it progresses.

Chalk up another successful lodgepole (from Mammoth) growing in Southern California since 2015 and is thriving.