Cascade/Wooden grow pot for training

Japonicus

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How have I missed this thread? Really like that cascade!

Also, I'll take 6 "slapped together" grow pots thanks.

I have been on the look out for a nice cascade pot as mentioned by @Adair M . I love the traditional cascade pots but understand the horticultural reasons for their decline. The ones I have found at my local plant shops all have calligraphy or something else too commercial/cheesy on them. I go to the big market in Taipei once a year and blow my budget.

@Japonicus can you post a pic from straight overhead please.

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Thanks for the kind words Cockroach! I probably should've waited till it was a bit more actively growing, but we had such a warm February everything was moving
so I went ahead in March, so it's lagging a bit behind the others for now.
That said, I am not wiring this bonsai at all anymore this year. I want it to recuperate and push hard growth.
I may not even pinch out the cascade much either. I want it stronger.

Knowing what I do now from your thread Roach's Junies, I shoulda used raffia on this.
I've spread apart what I wired before unpotting it, pretty hard a few times, post potting.
 

cockroach

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That was some nice info on using raffia and bending branches thanks to @defra .
It can also be done much slower over a longer time.

I have not touched to bottom of my cascade in maybe 3 years. And it has been wired twice since starting. The apex however has had some work done on it to control growth and direct energy.
 

Japonicus

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My cascade lost a good deal of development last and this year, most of an entire growing season really
since I potted it up at 1st push of growth in March. Should've waited till later in April.
Last year was touch n go I felt at times, but it never lost colour or branches, just was sickly all year.

Today I started my 1st pruning on it since 2017! Just getting started, will be taking it slow
as recovery has been so slow, but recovery has ticked up just enough to start looking at
possibly doing some limited wiring. Refer back to picture 1 post 1for the bones.
Sorry didn't get any really good pictures of it today.
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1st pic ^ the pot is rotated clockwise, to...not the front view really
The cedar pot has held up OK, a bit of a crack here and there, but remains well in tact.
Another issue that may've lent a hand in such a slow recovery, if you refer back to pic 1 post 1
where you can see the trunk line much better...wasn't pruned then that's for sure, and that means
I did my pruning the prior year. I since allow all my trees to grow on, needing pruning, more wild
the year before an intended repotting. What haunts me is the years that Springtime all is good,
soil is free draining, tree is growing on, then all of a sudden when it's too late prior to Summers heat
BAM, the roots fill the pot and the soil doesn't drain as needed to properly water in a hurry before work in the a.m.
 

Japonicus

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Still plenty to wire, corrections to make and so on, but this will
be getting repotted again before I finish wiring it out top to bottom.
I won't be making the same mistakes the year prior this time, like thinning and wiring as much as 2017.

I got in there and removed most of the moss on the trunk and branches
before I put this wire on today.
 

Japonicus

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Short sessions
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before-after 1/2 hr work today, almost no work on the lower half
to keep strength in the cascade and the tree in general as it recovers from
each of the short sessions to follow.


I will be all Summer with these short sessions preparing for wiring again.
Without wiring now, I will have to follow my cues from the sessions and wire accordingly,
meaning where I do and do not thin, twist here, and bend there to define the pads more.
Problem there is the pot is filling with roots and the soil compacting, making watering more tricky again.
Pretty sure I used a bit of NAPA 8822 DE in this blend, which I'm finding goes to muck
worse than akadama ever did. At least with the batch I bought. So I won't thin this down as much as
I did previously this go 'round, or phase of growth and direction.
 

Japonicus

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Getting a bit more full another short session follows, which is slowly reeling in direction that I like where it is going.
It's hard to get a picture to show height really well.
The pot is 8.5" x 7.25" tall, the bonsai is 24 x 18-19" wide (across the front side).
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So this is after a bit of thinning on the lower apex. I'd love to wire there now, but I want to keep as much energy
going down as I can during this Summer this go around, because the upper portion is more energetic and needs
thinning and that will need wiring again, but the lower portion needs wiring more.

One thing I've learned with my juniper in the last few years is that when a pad is built on a flaw
you have a flawed pad. The older the bonsai becomes flawed the worse the flaw shows up as a gap
or missing branch if corrected. Otherwise you must live with the flaw and it is painful each time you style
worse as the tree ages.
 

Japonicus

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That's about it for this year. It has thrown a little bit of juvenile foliage up top, mostly in the most vigorous areas.

Another short session today. This is going to look really good when I get wire on it next year.
Mostly doing short sessions of thinning and correcting this year.
Only thing left to do is feed and remove some moss from the trunk.
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2 sided cat repellant tape on my speaker.
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Left side

With a good wiring it won't look this heavy + I'll be doing a little more thinning before I wire it.
Unfortunately, the soil is compacting like it still has a bit of ground soil that needs to go.
Pot/cedar boards, still holding up better than expected.
 

Japonicus

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It is coming along
It is and I'm a little stymied at choices of desire versus choices of need.
It is trending in the direction of insult - sulk 2 years - and hopefully will explode on the 3rd year
but not happy with the soil composition.
This should've been a 5 year repot (I'm half way there), at least 4, and looking back at post #36
you can see how much removal I did on the roots and I think I need to be a little bit, more aggressive
with soil replacement next time, and less actual root removal.

@Leo in N E Illinois since you have mentioned elsewhere here (cant remember where it was you were advising
possibly against a cascade) saying it took a different set of horticultural skills. I'm not disagreeing, but in short
could you maybe expand on that a little what that means. Might be some info that could help with the choices ahead of me.

I have what is labeled Sargents juniper, that requires yet another skill level of its' own to tame particularly in ground ones.
Anyway, due to the last question above, I'd like to get your input on whether this sacrifice branch should be attempted
at a cascade prior to removal or just let it go. If you need more views, can do.
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Last September ^ would have been a better time to decide this if keeping as a cascade with the lush growth.
This year...
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I've left the sacrifice branch on the ground in the weeds etc...no work done on tree at all lots of die off on the sacrifice compared to a year ago.
The rest just needs thinning and wiring.
So, speaking of wiring, if I were to go cascade with this, what do I remove up top? I like the shari in the trunk feature below the crazy opposite jins
which needs cleaning up badly...it's just not a favourite tree of mine and gets perpetually neglected.

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Japonicus

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thing is rad. i was going to say it seems to be worthy of a HQ pot now
Thanks! I'm too cheap. A mica cascade pot is like 70-$90 but this one is too lightweight
and soil dries too fast. Then a lot of that could also be the dirt left in the root ball.
But yes it's one of my favs.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Cascades are just a higher level of bonsai technique. Not impossible, just more "complicated". The big issue is balancing growth vigor. There is much discussion about balancing vigor in pine bonsai, well, when you throw a cascade onto any species, balancing vigor is a big issue. The parts of the tree above the rim will monopolize the tree's resources. The branches below the rim of the pot will always be weaker. So when creating a cascade with species that normally don't have a lot of issues about balancing vigor, making them a cascade means that you will be constantly concerned about vigor and balancing growth.

As to your juniper. Almost all of the good to great cascade bonsai the trunk exits the ground at a slant. They almost never start with a bolt upright trunk as you have in this juniper. So if you plan on keeping the upright trunk, forget the cascade. If you want to slant the trunk at least 30 degrees off vertical, maybe more, then you could make that branch cascade.

Generally you prune a cascade so that the cascading branch becomes the dominant feature of the tree. If you made this juniper a cascade almost everything "above the rim" will have to go. You have this juniper pretty far down the road as an upright, changing to cascade now would likely just ruin the tree. It would not be good.
 

Japonicus

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Cascades are just a higher level of bonsai technique. Not impossible, just more "complicated". The big issue is balancing growth vigor. There is much discussion about balancing vigor in pine bonsai, well, when you throw a cascade onto any species, balancing vigor is a big issue. The parts of the tree above the rim will monopolize the tree's resources. The branches below the rim of the pot will always be weaker. So when creating a cascade with species that normally don't have a lot of issues about balancing vigor, making them a cascade means that you will be constantly concerned about vigor and balancing growth.

As to your juniper. Almost all of the good to great cascade bonsai the trunk exits the ground at a slant. They almost never start with a bolt upright trunk as you have in this juniper. So if you plan on keeping the upright trunk, forget the cascade. If you want to slant the trunk at least 30 degrees off vertical, maybe more, then you could make that branch cascade.

Generally you prune a cascade so that the cascading branch becomes the dominant feature of the tree. If you made this juniper a cascade almost everything "above the rim" will have to go. You have this juniper pretty far down the road as an upright, changing to cascade now would likely just ruin the tree. It would not be good.
Ok that's how I'm seeing it too. I went ahead in the meantime and made the sacrifice branch into a cascade to see what it put on the table.
Now, again, for others that may confuse your response with the original cascade in this thread with the "Sargents" I asked about here
I've brought another tree into the thread, which can be confusing.

The Sargents is a robust juniper that can get really unruly really fast!

Now I know some of these jins have to go, probably both right ones...could use a cue on that too.
The loop is awkward, but I'm at the cascade point and address the jins as well here for today.

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I thinned SOME and shortened the branches some. Getting too late in the year to do more on my bench. July I would have been a bit harder on it
but it's been sitting on the sidewalk catching all the spider mites it could in a neglected fashion.

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So this is a 1st wiring and direction for a cascade on this. Not too bad really for 2 pieces of wire.
Bends more easily than procumbens nana, but makes some long straight secondary branches that are void of taper when not worked.
Prime example, the main cascade branch forks inside the pots rim. The right fork has several little branches that look rather barren but do have
buds at the base.
changing to cascade now would likely just ruin the tree
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Yeh it's 2 trees. This is ugly. The upright part, never had good low branching was never properly styled before it was too late
and my experience level just couldn't do well with anything below what was kept at that time.

The loop/arc will be made more level when it is pruned off, and will use what foliage exits at more of a horizontal plane.
For now, it is holding the branch in place for the Winter. I cannot bend the branch much lower without notching it
and have decided to work with and around the flaw of the upright type of fork in the trunk.
But yeh, one has to go. There is some rot at the base of the shari at the top off the nebari.
Getting lime sulphur tomorrow. I hate to end the post with that last picture
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Very hard for me to describe the peculiar odor this type of juniper emits. I have a really nice one in ground but heavily unruly
and has poison ivy in it.
 

Japonicus

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I guess I should just bite the bullet and call that shoot at the right fork in the trunk the new beginning.
Never reduced one that far, so I suppose 2-3 years reduction time?

I've yet to harvest a successful air layer, but hate to let the cascade part go to waste.
How long does it typically take juniper to set roots enough in a layer?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I guess I should just bite the bullet and call that shoot at the right fork in the trunk the new beginning.
Never reduced one that far, so I suppose 2-3 years reduction time?

I've yet to harvest a successful air layer, but hate to let the cascade part go to waste.
How long does it typically take juniper to set roots enough in a layer?


I would give an air layer the same amount of time I give cuttings to root. That is 12 to 24 months. Don't worry about winter. Just keep the air layer media moist, but not saturated. Now is a good time to set the air layer, as callus will form over the cooler part of autumn and the above freezing times in winter. Then over spring & summer the roots will form from the callus.
 

Japonicus

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May 2020

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April 2021

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Oct. 11, 2021

1st day of thinning and wiring @Pitoon not what I'd hoped for, but there's a lot of smaller branches
that would perish if I were to put wire to them yet. I should have another partial day to work on this one this week.
I'm satisfied to be making some of the needed corrections today so it can move forward.
The apex is full of juvenile growth from a previous thinning.
 

Pitoon

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May 2020

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April 2021

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Oct. 11, 2021

1st day of thinning and wiring @Pitoon not what I'd hoped for, but there's a lot of smaller branches
that would perish if I were to put wire to them yet. I should have another partial day to work on this one this week.
I'm satisfied to be making some of the needed corrections today so it can move forward.
The apex is full of juvenile growth from a previous thinning.
I really like the movement on the first one. Good job thinning, by next summer it should fill back in nicely.
 

Japonicus

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I really like the movement on the first one. Good job thinning, by next summer it should fill back in nicely.
Thanks I remembered you said looking fwd to seeing it wired out
so I got started on it this morning. 1st one in this post from last May?

There's actually more movement in it now today.
Mostly from the top of the pots rim, to a few inches below the bottom of the pot was pretty straight.
Not a lot more, but put some movement in the straighter part of the cascade.
Opened its lines up a bit, and working from bottom up to the rim of the pot half way.
Opening up the trunk line was another must do today.
 
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Pitoon

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Thanks I remembered you said looking fwd to seeing it wired out
so I got started on it this morning. 1st one in this post from last May?

There's actually more movement in it now today.
Not a lot more, but put some movement in the straighter part of the cascade.
Opened its lines up a bit, and working from bottom up just above the rime of the pot.
Opening up the trunk line was another must do today.
When do you plan to move it into a clay pot?
 

Japonicus

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When do you plan to move it into a clay pot?
Been waiting on sorce for a couple years now.
He's allergic to the colour I was shooting for.
I can't this Spring given the work I'm doing now. Tried that in 2018 and almost lost it,
which is why it has been allowed to fill out so much last 2 yrs.
It needs it now...will have to aerate the current soil instead.
 
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