Cedrus Libani - newbie needs advise

[nabil]

Hi Forum

This is my first post to this forum, and i hope you can forgive my poor experience in this field.

i just got two Cedrus Libani around 8 years old in big pot with very compact heavy soil like cement.

i washed the root carefully with running water last week , until i got the root ball clear. i re-potted them in smaller pot with high quality peat moss so they can be rest for future root pruning , in the coming two years to be put in bonsai pot..

i need your suggestions of what to keep and what to cut to start develop taper. and branch style.
this is my first one. please feel free to suggest

 

[nabil]

here is the shots for the second bonsai

here is the shots for the second bonsai

 

[Cmanz]

I would consider planting them together as a twin trunk when you repot in a few years. This will give you a visually heavier trunk that will work better with the light foliage. Also trim 10 to 20 % off each branch. This will stimulate the weaker buds closer to the trunk and give you more branching. There is also a good article on cedars on the Evergreen Gardenworks site by Brent Walston. Also be gentle with cedar roots. They resent any root work. I would not touch them again for at least two years just to be safe.

 

[Cmanz]

Here is my big cedar on the ten year plan. Needs a crown sitting on the broken top, ramification on the branches, and a pot but she is still one of my favorite trees I own. It's a terrible pic I know.

 

[Cmanz]

Sorry to keep posting but don't trim anything on the second tree. Leave that one be.

 

[nabil]

I would consider planting them together as a twin trunk when you repot in a few years. This will give you a visually heavier trunk that will work better with the light foliage. Also trim 10 to 20 % off each branch. This will stimulate the weaker buds closer to the trunk and give you more branching. There is also a good article on cedars on the Evergreen Gardenworks site by Brent Walston. Also be gentle with cedar roots. They resent any root work. I would not touch them again for at least two years just to be safe.

thank you for your great idea of twin.

regarding trimming , you mean from all branches or just the main lower ones?

 

[nabil]

a rough look for twin ?

I would consider planting them together as a twin trunk when you repot in a few years. This will give you a visually heavier trunk that will work better with the light foliage. Also trim 10 to 20 % off each branch. This will stimulate the weaker buds closer to the trunk and give you more branching. There is also a good article on cedars on the Evergreen Gardenworks site by Brent Walston. Also be gentle with cedar roots. They resent any root work. I would not touch them again for at least two years just to be safe.

i made a rough pic for your advise, what do you think?

 

[Cmanz]

That looks good. Makes for a more powerful composition. In regards to trimming. Trim the strong lower branches and the strong growth at the apex. Leave any week branches alone. This will make dense foliage pads and invigorate the small branches.

 

[nabil]

That looks good. Makes for a more powerful composition. In regards to trimming. Trim the strong lower branches and the strong growth at the apex. Leave any week branches alone. This will make dense foliage pads and invigorate the small branches.

Can prune now? And once? Or every month during spring and summer?

 

[Ris]

Hi Forum

This is my first post to this forum, and i hope you can forgive my poor experience in this field.

i just got two Cedrus Libani around 8 years old in big pot with very compact heavy soil like cement.

i washed the root carefully with running water last week , until i got the root ball clear. i re-potted them in smaller pot with high quality peat moss so they can be rest for future root pruning , in the coming two years to be put in bonsai pot..

i need your suggestions of what to keep and what to cut to start develop taper. and branch style.
this is my first one. please feel free to suggest

I think you have deodar cedar not libani, I've got 3 and also blue cedars. That aside no root work now next spring before new buds open and only remove 1/3. Good luck.

 

[Cmanz]

I would only trim branches once a year at this stage.

 

[nabil]

I think you have deodar cedar not libani, I've got 3 and also blue cedars. That aside no root work now next spring before new buds open and only remove 1/3. Good luck.

Thankd for your post
Removing only 1/3 leaving 2/3 is a big root and won't fit into bonsai pot . What do you think?

 

[iant]

Peet moss? What kind of soil are you using? (I think Cedars like to be on the drier side with the roots.)
Ian

 

[nabil]

Peet moss? What kind of soil are you using? (I think Cedars like to be on the drier side with the roots.)
Ian

Unfortunately yes. I didn't know it was bad idea.
I cant now reverse and change the soil. Am trying to not water it as often. Next year before spring I will change the soil

 

[nabil]

the trees are dropping needles so heavily. how and what to do ?
are they dying ? how can i know, even the new growth became yellow and dry. i moved it to shade area.

please advise

 

[Vance Wood]

the trees are dropping needles so heavily. how and what to do ?
are they dying ? how can i know, even the new growth became yellow and dry. i moved it to shade area.

please advise

I really hate to tell you but most conifers do not like to be bare rooted and you are probably losing your trees. It is always an easy thing to ask questions after you have jumped off a cliff and can't go back for a do over. The only thing you can do is hope the abrupt stop at the bottom is livable.

There really is nothing you can do at this point that will turn the bus around. These two trees are going to do what they are going to do and what you do about it now will only make the potentially bad things happen quicker.

You have not clarified what kind of Peat Moss you are using but in general, unless you are using straight raw Sphagnum, milled Peat Moss can be a leathal product to both the trees and the bonsai grower.

In the future, if you plan on working with conifers, you would be best served by asking about something before you do it. It is easier to solve a problem by not causing it, than it is to look for ways to over-come the results. I know some people will suggest that I could have been kinder in the way I have told you the good news, and I am really sorry you are having to lean this lesson but as you are soon to find out; the path way to learning bonsai is littered with the dead victims of our failures. The important thing to learn form this is --------learn from this. Too often, too many trees are lost, just because we are too impatient, and only consider that maybe we should know what we are doing before we do it, when we discover what we did was a disaster.

 

[nabil]

I really hate to tell you but most conifers do not like to be bare rooted and you are probably losing your trees. It is always an easy thing to ask questions after you have jumped off a cliff and can't go back for a do over. The only thing you can do is hope the abrupt stop at the bottom is livable.

There really is nothing you can do at this point that will turn the bus around. These two trees are going to do what they are going to do and what you do about it now will only make the potentially bad things happen quicker.

You have not clarified what kind of Peat Moss you are using but in general, unless you are using straight raw Sphagnum, milled Peat Moss can be a leathal product to both the trees and the bonsai grower.

In the future, if you plan on working with conifers, you would be best served by asking about something before you do it. It is easier to solve a problem by not causing it, than it is to look for ways to over-come the results. I know some people will suggest that I could have been kinder in the way I have told you the good news, and I am really sorry you are having to lean this lesson but as you are soon to find out; the path way to learning bonsai is littered with the dead victims of our failures. The important thing to learn form this is --------learn from this. Too often, too many trees are lost, just because we are too impatient, and only consider that maybe we should know what we are doing before we do it, when we discover what we did was a disaster.

Not at all. Thank you for your straight opinion.
I lost two and I still have three potted in heavy loam soil.

The coarse peat moss I used. I guess was wrong. Even the weather here is so dry and hot. Also I guessed I put them in direct sun too quickly. Not allowing them to recover for enough time.

Now I have three potted in big containers in loam heavy compact soil. How the hell am going to transfer them over few seasons to bonsai soil and pots??? They are 12 years old in same soil.
I dont want to work on them wiring styling. And after two three years will die once they must be potted in bonsai pots

Please tell me what to do with
Am going to post pictures for the dying ones to be sure that they r dying. By the way the branches are still tender not dried

 

[Vance Wood]

Not at all. Thank you for your straight opinion.
I lost two and I still have three potted in heavy loam soil.

The coarse peat moss I used. I guess was wrong. Even the weather here is so dry and hot. Also I guessed I put them in direct sun too quickly. Not allowing them to recover for enough time.

Now I have three potted in big containers in loam heavy compact soil. How the hell am going to transfer them over few seasons to bonsai soil and pots??? They are 12 years old in same soil.
I dont want to work on them wiring styling. And after two three years will die once they must be potted in bonsai pots

Please tell me what to do with
Am going to post pictures for the dying ones to be sure that they r dying. By the way the branches are still tender not dried

Now sir you are asking questions. First of all a combination in the same pot of two or more dispirit combinations of soils is not the giant problem it is made out to be. You can replace the old soil in increments over the period of several repots. I do not have any of these trees but I certainly would love one or more. I do, have enough trees that I have had to take through a transformation like you are looking at to know what to do. I would assume the time to work on these guys is in the early Spring and I allso am assumming that time is now where you live.

Trees like this, as well as most other needle type conifers, do not like or will not survive being bare rooted. It is best that you do not remove more than 50% of the old soil at any one time. It is important that you determine what kind of soil is best for trees grown in your area, preferably conifers. If you still have additional questions post them and I will offer what I know. There are a number of growers here that have experience growing true Cedars (lucky them they are beautiful trees). They don't grow well here because of the severity of the winters, so I don't have one.

 

[nabil]

Now sir you are asking questions. First of all a combination in the same pot of two or more dispirit combinations of soils is not the giant problem it is made out to be. You can replace the old soil in increments over the period of several repots. I do not have any of these trees but I certainly would love one or more. I do, have enough trees that I have had to take through a transformation like you are looking at to know what to do. I would assume the time to work on these guys is in the early Spring and I allso am assumming that time is now where you live.

Trees like this, as well as most other needle type conifers, do not like or will not survive being bare rooted. It is best that you do not remove more than 50% of the old soil at any one time. It is important that you determine what kind of soil is best for trees grown in your area, preferably conifers. If you still have additional questions post them and I will offer what I know. There are a number of growers here that have experience growing true Cedars (lucky them they are beautiful trees). They don't grow well here because of the severity of the winters, so I don't have one.

I am still not getting it clear, my ultimate final target regarding root is:

*prune roots to fit bonsai pot:
so in every spring if i removed 50% old soil, i can not add more soil, what to do in two years repotting what will i ends up with? a manageable root ball can be fit in shallow pot.

or you mean remove 50% old soil with pruning 30% root and add soil to cover back 20% new soil? so i ended up with 50% old soil removed 30% roots removed 20% new soil?

here we are in end of the second spring month, it became 31C or higher, i will wait till next ends of Feb 2015 before any new shoots.

now i will try to lightly wire and light cleaning and styling

what do you think about the soil issue?

 

[Vance Wood]

I am still not getting it clear, my ultimate final target regarding root is:

*prune roots to fit bonsai pot:
so in every spring if i removed 50% old soil, i can not add more soil, what to do in two years repotting what will i ends up with? a manageable root ball can be fit in shallow pot.

or you mean remove 50% old soil with pruning 30% root and add soil to cover back 20% new soil? so i ended up with 50% old soil removed 30% roots removed 20% new soil?

here we are in end of the second spring month, it became 31C or higher, i will wait till next ends of Feb 2015 before any new shoots.

now i will try to lightly wire and light cleaning and styling

what do you think about the soil issue?

Your problem is in thinking that your primary job at this time is to get this tree into a bonsai pot. That's where you are having a problem. Your job is to replace all of the original soil these trees were grown in with a good quality bonsai soil that will help produce a fine root systerm that can be reduced down to fit in a bonsai pot. You cannot remove all of the old soil at one time. You remove 1/3 to 1/2 the first time then you remove the other 1/3to 1/2 the next repot. In a few years you should have a tree capable of being reduced down enough to go into a bonsai pot. As to the soil issue you have to try to understand how bonsai growers in your area view a good bonsai soil. Look it up on this site, bonsai soil is a discussion that has taken place here many times with a host of different opinions and formulas.

If you find yourself in the position of needing to work on something, go to a nursery and pick up a Juniper to work on. Once you disturb the soil on the Cedars you should not be fooling around with the rest of the tree for a few months. Junipers, on the other hand, can tolerate an abundance of abuse.

It would also help if you could finish your personal profile at least to the point of including your location, we don't want your address but your growing areas----What Country?