Cercis canadensis?

[JPhillips]

Has anyone to date successfully utilized Eastern Redbud? Anyone I have spoken to has had little luck transplanting or training one but I have seen reports of its use on the ABS US natives list. I have access to some seedlings and (realizing the span of the endeavor) am going to sow some more come spring. My plan is to have enough plants to be able to experiment with different treatments. I contend that this tree has the ability to rival nearly any in it's spring display and thus deserves this effort. I would greatly appreciate any insight on the subject anyone can offer.

Thanks,
Jake Phillips

 

[Stan Kengai]

The only experience I have with them is in the landscape, and I can certainly confirm that, in the ground, they do not like their roots disturbed. Seedlings and small trees that I've transplanted in the spring have about a 50% mortality rate, but fall transplants fare better with only about 30% loss. They have huge tap roots.

I think these are great trees and have seen many beautiful landscape specimen with gnarly trunks. I wish you much luck.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I've also wanted to try one for a long time, and have been growing out a volunteer for bonsai in the back yard that may be ready to pot in a couple years. I have successfully transplanted 2 with no problems, so maybe it will tolerate pot culture.

The leaves are ugly after about May, and seem like they'd be tough to reduce, but definitely worth trying for the spring show.

 

[JudyB]

I have a small forest planting done with seedlings, I have lots of volunteers in the yard to play with. I got about 50% to take when I planted, and I loose one every so often. But it's just for fun, hasn't flowered yet....

 

[coh]

I have these all over my yard (courtesy of seeds from some upwind trees) and have had mixed luck digging and transplanting. They do form major tap roots and seem to have a tendency to produce a few large roots overall that "travel", without a lot of close-in feeder roots. I lost most of my attempted transplants at first, but seem to be having more luck by "pre-digging" around the root mass in the summer/fall, then lifting the tree the next spring. Note that I'm talking about larger trees (trunk diameter 1" or more), not seedlings.

I've got one plant that is in the ground as a "pre-bonsai", it was growing under a fence and developed an interesting lower trunk bend. It has survived a couple of transplants but doesn't have very good surface roots. It's probably going to be dug in the spring, probably will go back in the ground for another couple of years. I need to see if I can encourage additional roots to grow.

My experience is that seedlings don't start flowering until they're 5+ years old...on trees that are allowed to grow unencumbered, that means when they're about 6' or a bit taller.

Chris

 

[Oliver Muscio]

I had a small one I potted and which bloomed in the pot, but over a period of two or three years it gradually lost limbs until it was entirely dead. I would like to try again with a suitable subject, and possibly better horticulture (cutting around the roots the season before lifting, and a better draining soil.)
Oliver

 

[JPhillips]

Thank you all for responding so quickly! So what I'm gathering is this...

1. Thick wandering roots that hate to be disturbed
2. Limb loss
3. Big leaves

I feel like I could use various methods to achieve a healthy fibrous root system but I'm still concerned about how I'm going to develop the trunk and branches. How do you prune and when? I've gathered that they are poor back-budders so how should I handle this?

Thanks again,
Jake Phillips

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Jake,

I have one I dug out of my yard. It is been in the same pot I placed it in about 5 years ago, so I don't know about the roots yet. It has big leaves, the leaves get uglier as the season goes on, the plant drops important branches pretty quickly when you wire them (unimportant and unwired branches seem to do fine...).

Most disappointingly, it had flowered before I dug it; it has not flowered since. While it is still alive and I water and fertilize it like everything else, I lost interest and have no answers for you.

I had the same reaction to Cercis as you. It should be an awesome spring plant. Kind of like Wisteria. So far, I have had issues with the flowering. Just wanted to let you know. Still, you should try it. You may have greater success.

Regards,
Martin

 

[gergwebber]

I have tried many smaller cercis (probably occidentalis from the arbor day foundation) and all of them have withered and died. I do have a large one(canadensis i think) that regularly blooms in a fifteen gallon container that has not been re-potted in four years.

I think this is one of those natives that is just too wild still, and needs more selecting and breeding to be "pot sturdy"

 

[JPhillips]

Martin- Thanks sharing your experience and support. How have you gone about pruning? I have read that pruning in the fall can cost spring blooms, but I suppose that after a summer of wild growth there really isn't a way around that. I also wonder about the differences between the southern and northern Cercis. Here in Nebraska we have to be sure to buy redbud grown below zone 5 or else they quickly die.

This brings me to gergwebber said about selection and breeding. (Being a Hort. Major) I have been made to realize the underutilization of C. canadensis in the trade until somewhat recently.
Discovering a cultivar that can withstand pot culture and the rigors of training would (in my opinion) be something worth pursuing.
The only question now is whether my senior thesis will be over this or the aspen of the Niobrara River valley.

 

[JudyB]

Not to go off topic, but JPhillips, I'm curious about the aspen you speak of now.... Are they different? (I have a small aspen forest planting too, guess I have a penchant for using poor trees for forest plantings....)

 

[JPhillips]

The aspen that I'm talking about is actually a natural hybrid of big-tooth and quaking aspen that only occurs in the Niobrara River valley, 500 miles from the nearest aspen population. These aspen, as well as paper birch, are relics from when the glaciers receded at the end of the last ice age. The valleys provided a cooler and moister microclimate so they were able to thrive. As of late, the valleys are getting warmer and Eastern Red Cedars are staring to choke them out so volunteers are working on clearing them out.

Here is a video about the species filmed recently.

http://vimeo.com/45599182

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those students chopping down cedars but someday!

Thanks for letting me rant about that for a minute Judy!

-Jake Phillips

 

[JudyB]

Hey Jake, that's very interesting. I'm sort of a tree nut, so I'm always looking for stuff like this.... Here's a link to an interesting thread and a couple of articles about a very old tree up in the Wallowas in case you're interested in stuff like this too...

http://www.bonsaisite.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24538&hl=&fromsearch=1

anyway, my sister has a redbud that has bloomed for her in a bonsai pot... she tends to be a neglectful type of bonsai-ist, and uses actual soil in her pots.... but maybe that's why she has had luck with this one, something to think on...

 

[Martin Sweeney]

JPhillips,

Knowing that Cercis is an early spring bloomer, I pruned at the end of Spring / early Summer. After pruning I never really got much more growth, of course I think I wired too. After that I started seeing limb drop, etc. I stopped pruning and wiring, but still didn't see any blooms.

The tree was placed in an 8" bulb pot, so it doesn't have much soil to grow in. I feel that the limited soil and therefore root mass hinders the development of flowers.

Regards,
Martin

 

[JPhillips]

Judy- I am a huge tree nerd and that is the kind of thing that makes me want to pack up the car and head to the mountains! I've already trekked to the Black Hills and White River National Forest in Colorado this year but that tree just pushed the Wallowas to the top of my travel list.

About your sister's Redbud, I wonder what about using actual soil would do for the roots... This deserves a little experimentation.

Martin- Maybe C. canadensis needs a relatively large root mass to flower. Does it form flower buds that don't open or not form them at all? I don't know what either one would mean but it provide some answers....

Thanks,
Jake Phillips

 

[just.wing.it]

Old thread resurrection....
Hey @Brian Van Fleet,
Did you ever dig yours up?

How bout that forest @JudyB ?
Still kicking?

I have loved these trees in spring for a long time, great color contrast between the dark bark and purple flowers...

Just wondering if it's worth it for bonsai purposes.....I may get one for the front yard, regardless...

 

[BrianBay9]

I had a nursery specimen for over a year, went through one root reduction but still into a fairly generous pot. It was doing great, flowered for me, when I left it behind in my last move.

 

[JudyB]

My forest is long gone, I could never get it to flower. Sad, would be nice if someone could learn that secret.