Chamaecyparis Hinoki - September a good time to thin?

[Japonicus]

I present a TIME LINE below before anybody jumps on the bandwagon with a generic answer.
The health of the tree based on prior events is always crucial to me.
I'm assuming wiring damage based on @Vance Wood 's input
but perhaps a blight or disease of sorts hit this hinoki. IDK.

I wired it last Fall, so probably a little bit of thinning 1st.

.
Last Fall prior to wiring


Late Fall this gem began throwing a terrible fit, I thought it might die half way back.
Sorry for the out of order shot, just establishing history of health and tolerance to my maintenance.

August 2018 ^ it did exceeding well with this wiring done earlier than and in contrast to, the Fall 2019 wiring.
(So some thinning and wiring 2 years in a row, nothing major).

Following Spring May 2019 wire removed

2nd wiring Last Fall, much less detail, just maintaining ...

Feb, 2020
Ah, that's not too much wire, but quite the fit it threw nonetheless.
I potted this dwarf hinoki this May 2020. It actually will display 4 tones of colour.
Green, dark green, yellow, and cream when at peak season and health just like my Lynns Golden does.


Ok, so it threw a fit, and I kept it on the deck at the foot of my bench shading one side mostly for the day and rotating it.
The lack of bright Full Sun diminishes the contrast in colour, to just 2 tone green. Expected that. Health has increased
but the damage is done to the inside of the frawns, the colour is awful, and this is the precious interior growth as well.

Well I still find 4 colours, just not that "beacon" on the bench right now.

Obviously needs thinning, and Bonsai4me mentions Winter die back on shaded areas on the interior.
I keep my trees under my sunroom over Winter with no direct light, and it has never been a problem.
The possible "wiring damage" above last Fall, seemed to only affect one side, the front half of the tree.
Back side seemed pretty good. Have not thinned due to the repot this May, but it needs it. When?

 

[Japonicus]

I understand the copper wire is not quite of adequate size
and the angle is coiled up too tight which aesthetically doesn't help.
I don't remember having any issues with it holding what I wanted it to though.
I did not have to manhandle branches to and fro to get them into place.

 

[TN_Jim]

it needs ~6 hrs direct sun relative is where I’d start

even in winter

 

[Japonicus]

it needs ~6 hrs direct sun relative is where I’d start

even in winter

I’ve had this from a cutting and have never given it good light in the Winter.
Wind protection has been my Winter theme more than light for all my trees.
It has been getting 6 hrs on one side now, and rotating through the growing season last 3 months.
I have moved it up to being on the bench now.

 

[sorce]

Somebody is getting the worm! Morning!

I look at that yellerin and read about winter with little sun and air and that 2 and 2 goes together for me. It seems possible that this can start small in those tight crevices then really reveal itself later.

Doesn't seem you are moving branches too much for it to be associated with wire. I've never had wire damage not reveal itself completely. You would know if it was just wire. Unless these are allergic to copper.

These go for a second Growth spurt in fall?

If so, "thinning" (more on that later) it in August will allow that fall Growth full growth.
Where later in September, you are actually either removing the fall growth, or worse, disrupting it during growth.

The point is, "thinning" is a human idea. A prune is a prune is a prune. Timing is everything.

There is never a reason to remove anything before it ruins design.
Removing stuff because it is easier to wire is a human thing.
However, the stuff you remove can fit into "not removing anything before it ruins design" because perhaps, without this ease of wiring your design will be ruined.
The key then is growing that folaige for that purpose.

I'd like to know more about the trees rythym.

To me, this thread, you are telling us you are drumming different rythyms every year, asking what is correct. But the trees rythym is the sheet music which we don't know yet.

Sorce

 

[Japonicus]

So still no clue as to when is best to thin THIS Hinoki.

Somebody is getting the worm! Morning!

I look at that yellerin and read about winter with little sun and air and that 2 and 2 goes together for me

Good day @sorce
Actually the more yellow and cream the healthier this one is, so may want to re-read that part.

There is never a reason to remove anything before it ruins design.

Actually with hinoki there is since it does not back bud on brown wood.

From http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Chamaecyparis.html ...
Pruning Chamaecyparis do not backbud on anything other than green wood.
Pinch out foliage continually through growing season to keep compact. Allowing over extension of growth can lead to the irreplaceable loss of inner growth.
Do not hard-prune in summer. Foliage that is shaded will often dieback during the Winter.

I let it rest and recuperate this year after potting up.
I felt that was injurious enough given the Fall/Winter woes.


Bjorn at Bonsai @16 in England, did a video on what I've time lined above, with this video posted early in November 2016.
However posting dates, never mean anything unless it is disclosed within a video, when techniques were done.
One clue is clothing, but could be Winter or Spring, just a clue.
Other than that I love this video, and always play it prior to wiring and thinning.

Ok, so we think it needs more Winter light. Where I store the tree is mostly for wind protection since snow and ice
are not a given here, but Polar Expresses do make their way through here enough for me to know that hinoki needs
more wind protection than most other projects I have. Earlier before the sunroom was built, I did heel it into the ground.
Now it's in a nice pot and I don't want to heal it into the ground. Winter 2017/18 we hit -18ºF briefly here. It did fine
mulched in, under the sunroom huddled in with all my other trees..

o me, this thread, you are telling us you are drumming different rythyms every year, asking what is correct.

So I am asking what is correct yes, but only shifted wiring by a month 2 years running.
No mention of "every year doing something different".
Every year the same no good light during Winter for over 10 years. It has not suddenly evolved to demand such.
Please scroll up to the face in the 1st post. That pic in May, the foliage looks stunning. Vibrant, and just out of Winter dormancy
by a couple weeks. Treated same as all years of its' life in my care from a cutting to now.
Something happened that has not happened before. Maybe I bent the trunk line?
Sorry I do not recollect a Fall push of growth, but I know it responds well to August work...
I just don't know if September is too late. I certainly slow down my work on junipers now, September.
Still doing light thinning on them but nothing full on.

 

[Japonicus]

it needs ~6 hrs direct sun relative is where I’d start

even in winter

Hi Jim yes it does. It is Full Sun plant. Maybe a little too heavy pampering through the many heat waves we had this Summer
but they're a thirsty tree, I'm not ashamed of that pampering it this year. I think it recovered quite well from February till now.
Puts a feather in my cap so to say. It feels good to have not lost any portion of the tree.
I went out and bought 2 different golden junipers, a golden hemlock, and 2 or 3 cutting sized golden hinoki to take the place of this one
should I lose it. I'm glad I did not. Don't want to, so I started this thread on this Golden Hinoki.

I can however
clean under the branches and all the dead stuff out without any reservations.
That's always a great place to start.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Stop rotating the tree in summer. All that does is force the tree to recombulate. The brighter side will get used to being brighter and grow better, and the other side will get used to 2nd banana. While the darker side may be happier with more light that will be counteracted by the brighter side suddenly losing what it had. It's almost impossible to get good light on both sides on a city lot with all the horizon obstructions and the sun moving in an arc that changes throughout summer, all made even harder with a half-day of sun. You need to choose a front and favor it.

 

[Japonicus]

Stop rotating the tree in summer. All that does is force the tree to recombulate. The brighter side will get used to being brighter and grow better, and the other side will get used to 2nd banana. While the darker side may be happier with more light that will be counteracted by the brighter side suddenly losing what it had. It's almost impossible to get good light on both sides on a city lot with all the horizon obstructions and the sun moving in an arc that changes throughout summer, all made even harder with a half-day of sun. You need to choose a front and favor it.

That sounds advisable. I'll buy that. Never thought of it that way. Thanks. recombulate or recombobulate.
I had the tree in time out thinking I was maximizing the space it was in
not giving thought to continual recombobulation

It's certainly been a joy being with this evening. I enjoy working on this tree.
Obviously don't want a repeat of last Winters woes, so no wholesale work, no wire
just a little "check your "Queen" on the board through till Octobers end as slow as I am.




It's an off year. It's getting some smile back. Still a lot of supple brown inside growth I can't do anything about.
Will just have to grow that out and have a black eye for a few years.

Ya know, I could have missed an important watering over Winter that set it back. I have no idea. Hinoki do not like being dried out.
Maybe the neighbors dog or other animal peed on it.

 

[_#1_]

Stop rotating the tree in summer. All that does is force the tree to recombulate. The brighter side will get used to being brighter and grow better, and the other side will get used to 2nd banana. While the darker side may be happier with more light that will be counteracted by the brighter side suddenly losing what it had. It's almost impossible to get good light on both sides on a city lot with all the horizon obstructions and the sun moving in an arc that changes throughout summer, all made even harder with a half-day of sun. You need to choose a front and favor it.

You should ignore this.

In one of his You Tube video, Peter Chan worked on one of his favorite trees he gave to a friend (Cryptomeria). That friend left the tree in one position the whole time and the shaded side completely died out. Mayor branches dead.

I don't know man. Seem like trees will favor area exposed to optimal sun light. Shaded part gets weakened and die out.

 

[Japonicus]

You should ignore this.

In one of his You Tube video, Peter Chan worked on one of his favorite trees he gave to a friend (Cryptomeria). That friend left the tree in one position the whole time and the shaded side completely died out. Mayor branches dead.

I don't know man. Seem like trees will favor area exposed to optimal sun light. Shaded part gets weakened and die out.

Species specific maybe?
I've heard of pine growers placing a tree against a foundation wall to age the bark in accelerated fashion on the shaded side.
Seems like that was in the Stone Lantern Bonsai Today book on Pines IIRC.

 

[mrcasey]

This should answer your question about when to thin. It's great info.

 

[_#1_]

Species specific maybe?

Thought someone would say that. BUT, from what I understand, Hinoki rarely ever backbuds.

So if an entire side dies out....

 

[Japonicus]

This should answer your question about when to thin. It's great info.

Yes that's a great video. Forgot Bjorn referenced obtusa in general with the sekka.
I got 2 sekka over the last year. Fantastic differences, and he's right, they do hold their back buds
and more interior growth longer than obtusa. Cute things. I got a good nebari (best in my collection) on the 1st one I bought.

 

[TN_Jim]

Stop rotating the tree in summer. All that does is force the tree to recombulate. The brighter side will get used to being brighter and grow better, and the other side will get used to 2nd banana. While the darker side may be happier with more light that will be counteracted by the brighter side suddenly losing what it had. It's almost impossible to get good light on both sides on a city lot with all the horizon obstructions and the sun moving in an arc that changes throughout summer, all made even harder with a half-day of sun. You need to choose a front and favor it.

That advice is asinine. Sorry man.
Not only that, use the rotation of a pot to heal or favor specific branches, move plant to new locations..static bonsai must be some next level

 

[River's Edge]

So still no clue as to when is best to thin THIS Hinoki.

Good day @sorce
Actually the more yellow and cream the healthier this one is, so may want to re-read that part.


Actually with hinoki there is since it does not back bud on brown wood.

From http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Chamaecyparis.html ...
Pruning Chamaecyparis do not backbud on anything other than green wood.
Pinch out foliage continually through growing season to keep compact. Allowing over extension of growth can lead to the irreplaceable loss of inner growth.
Do not hard-prune in summer. Foliage that is shaded will often dieback during the Winter.

I let it rest and recuperate this year after potting up.
I felt that was injurious enough given the Fall/Winter woes.


Bjorn at Bonsai @16 in England, did a video on what I've time lined above, with this video posted early in November 2016.
However posting dates, never mean anything unless it is disclosed within a video, when techniques were done.
One clue is clothing, but could be Winter or Spring, just a clue.
Other than that I love this video, and always play it prior to wiring and thinning.

Ok, so we think it needs more Winter light. Where I store the tree is mostly for wind protection since snow and ice
are not a given here, but Polar Expresses do make their way through here enough for me to know that hinoki needs
more wind protection than most other projects I have. Earlier before the sunroom was built, I did heel it into the ground.
Now it's in a nice pot and I don't want to heal it into the ground. Winter 2017/18 we hit -18ºF briefly here. It did fine
mulched in, under the sunroom huddled in with all my other trees..




So I am asking what is correct yes, but only shifted wiring by a month 2 years running.
No mention of "every year doing something different".
Every year the same no good light during Winter for over 10 years. It has not suddenly evolved to demand such.
Please scroll up to the face in the 1st post. That pic in May, the foliage looks stunning. Vibrant, and just out of Winter dormancy
by a couple weeks. Treated same as all years of its' life in my care from a cutting to now.
Something happened that has not happened before. Maybe I bent the trunk line?
Sorry I do not recollect a Fall push of growth, but I know it responds well to August work...
I just don't know if September is too late. I certainly slow down my work on junipers now, September.
Still doing light thinning on them but nothing full on.

Well just my 2 cents!
I thin cypress and chameocypris two to three times per year depending on the strength of the tree. This is for my climate and zone. I would suggest you stick to two times per year, middle of may and the middle of august for starters. Your zone is colder in the winter and likely cooler in the spring so shorter growing season.
I rotate plants monthly for even development of foliage, the tree should look good from all angles.
I would not fuss about lack of light in dormancy, but would protect from wind burn and extreme cold.
Pruning for wiring purposes prevents extra damage and thinning for light keeps the interior healthy.
Mulching it in is a good approach combined with under the porch. Just insure good air movement between plants. ( not too tightly packed)

 

[Forsoothe!]

You guys are out-thinking yourselves. I didn't say to keep it in a position where one side had good light and the other side was in the mouth of a cave. Put the tree where it gets as much light on it, -the whole it, as appropriate for the species just like it would be in the landscape. If you put it where one side would die out if that side received very poor light, like up against a dark building, that's your fault and reward. In the landscape, in my zone 6b Hinoki are planted in half to full day sun. Under the best of positions that means about 90° is going to be facing no direct sunshine, yet that side of the tree does not go bare. I see many display benches up against fences and buildings here on this website. That carries with it a shady side which is bad for trees, or at least problematic for the backside of the trees. Almost all benches are positioned within a backyard such that it looks architecturally right to the owner and may or may not have as much sun as possible or wanted or as needed. Benches should be placed where they get the most sun on all sides for as long as posssible, at least in my zone where it gets hot, but not like California or Texas. My benches face SSW and have an upper and a lower shelf where the upper shelf has one less 2 x 4 so the lower shelf has some direct sun part of the day. I can position any tree to have the amount of direct sun it needs, within the limits of my yard. I would like more sun exposure than I can have. I wish the benches were in the middle of the yard, but the die is cast. I suspect that most people find themselves in similar circumstances.

My potted Hinokis are on the NNE side of a lower shelf and get sun from about 3PM -on. I do not rotate them and the fronts look fine and typically less so on the rear as I would expect all trees to look, -on a front and on a rear, so I assume they get enough sun. Yes, that's right, I said my trees have a front which I favor and a rear which is resultant. How peculiar for a bonsai? Why would anybody waste time making the rear of a tree look better at the expense of the front? Only for the health of the tree and we all do that, within limits, the front is always the front.

 

[River's Edge]

Why would anybody waste time making the rear of a tree look better at the expense of the front? Only for the health of the tree and we all do that, within limits, the front is always the front.

Some people show their trees, and it makes a difference. Not overthinking anything, just paying closer attention to the details. Why would Bonsai people do that ?

 

[sorce]

re-read

I was talking about the "fit" that it threw and the "awful color". I may have misread a bit of yeller in the pic, but I get it.

Actually with hinoki there is since it does not back bud on brown wood.

This will ruin design. So you are within the parameters of that rule. The stipulation "before it ruins design" is key. Always different, but always applicable.

Pruning Chamaecyparis do not backbud on anything other than green wood.
Pinch out foliage continually through growing season to keep compact. Allowing over extension of growth can lead to the irreplaceable loss of inner growth.
Do not hard-prune in summer. Foliage that is shaded will often dieback during the Winter.

I let it rest and recuperate this year after potting up.
I felt that was injurious enough given the Fall/Winter woes

This information may be correct, but it is quite generic itself. Let me explain.

To me, there is a numerical value on the return from folaige, be it here or not(pruned).

So depending on how much "pruning through the growing season" you do, will change the value of the return. Things like available light, local microclimate, etc, will also have a determination on how much energy return was allowed before things are cut.

This all adds up to a number which will determine the "cost" of "don't hard prune in summer". It determines what a hard prune is, based off these returns, not just what is removed at that time.

So your thinning, I believe, may be a "hard prune", and this can go all the way back to the lack of return in winter.

More return through winter, allows you to cut the same through the growing season, which is keeping it nice, and will allow your thinning to BE..just a thinning, and not a "hard prune".

So your timing is likely fine, it's everything else that needs balance.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

And Forsoothe is talking about a "confusion" scenario which I understand.

It has merit.

He isn't saying keep a side shaded like Chan, he's saying get it as balanced as possible from one position. This will lessen confusion.

I personally don't think this will effect you to great, but 2%, is 2%. Use it if you can!

That said, your winter sun is way more than 2%, feels like 40%! Use it!

Sorce