Chemical to organic fertilizer regimen---> Timeframe for satisfactory growth?

[bwaynef]

This post is for anyone who's switched from "chemical"* fertilizer to organic:

I've read/seen/been taught enough to believe that my trees would benefit from organic fertilizer. (Which is best isn't really for discussion on this post, ...please and thank you.) I was wondering for anyone further along this road than I am, when you switched to organic from "chemical"*, how long did it take for you to be satisfied with the growth/health/vigor of your trees after you switched?




*All fertilizers are chemical. I get it. Technically, everything is a chemical.

 

[BobbyLane]

i think if you want your trees to have a continuous supply of varied nutrients, the logical thing to do is use both. ive always used both. most bonsai professionals use both. that simple really.

 

[Penjing-Darren]

Hi There,

I might be a bonsai amateur and hobbyist but i now a heck of alot about PH - and nutrients organic and inorganic ferts.
So with inorganic "chemical" the soil will build up salts alot faster than organic. Salts will cause your PH to go up or down and as a result you will get nutrient lockout and you will notice deficiency in your plants. This is worse case scenario if using inorganic. Why? inorganic its alot stronger and synthetically made therefore the tree/plant/bush tents not to eat all the compounds. N-P-K "macro" and micro nutrients [boron (B), zinc (Zn), manganese (Mn), iron (Fe), copper (Cu), molybdenum (Mo), chlorine (Cl) etc also chemical tents not to support good bacteria "kills it" as were organic tents to be more gentle and supports good bacteria which helps break down components which plants need.

If you want to switch i would say give your tree a good solid socking a few times in a row "a flush" which will help get rid of excess salts. Then you can fert right away if desired with your organic. However start at 50% of the recommended dose and gradually work your way up over time.

Rather use less then more is a good rule with all ferts, over ferting can literally kill the tree over night, root burn and you will know all about it.
A good Seaweed fert is gentle and will supply everything the tree needs. Might be a-little high on the N but not always read the back of the bottle can compare different brands to what you require.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rafael Najmanovich]

I use both, organic need microbial activity and so it is only effective with temperatures above I believe 15C/60F so in early spring and mid/late fall I use chemical. If you're not satisfied with the growth you're seeing after switching to organic there are a number of things that could be affecting its efficacy. 1. organic needs to be moist, it keeps moist long in contact with the surface. 2. Perhaps the quantity per location where you place your organic (assuming a granular/powder/cake form) or number of locations might be insufficient. 3. If you use tea bags, the type of bag can make a difference too, I had some that were quite sturdy and would not decompose in the pots, I then changed to paper ones that after a month turned into fertilized itself, as a result of fungal and bacterial activity only the string is left after a month. I still leave what's left in place and apply a new teabag elsewhere, although the supply of nitrogen is likely spent after a month, other nutrients are not. I don't know if I hit the point you were seeking clarification or if I missed but I hope it helps. I made also a video about some general aspects of fertilization if you're interested. Take care.

 

[Smoke]

Bonsai is chock full of convenient contradictions. This guy says this because he studies with this master so what I say is gospel, and this guy reads this guy's blog and what he says is gospel, and this guy watches this guys podcast, and since he studied in Japan, what he says is gospel.

That is so much bullshit. Everything we do in bonsai is simple and if one stops and reasons and applies some common sense to whatever we do in bonsai, THE way will soon present itself. And...it will be simple.

What I do is what I do. Don't do what I do. It works for me but might not for you.

I have been on forums for over twenty years so I have history and documentation on lots of forums. In fact if you go over to BSG, the last time I posted there my avatar shows me holding a 25 pound bag of Gro Power organic fertilizer. I swore by that stuff. It is good and should be used by those that swear by organics. It works.

What I noticed over the years that by using organic fertilizer and inorganic soil was that is seemed stupid to spend so much money on akadama and the rest of the inorganic components only to clog the soil up with messy, goupy, black organic fertilizer. If you want good stuff it will be messy, goupy and black.

I was tired of the mess, tired of adding more fertilizer, tired of the bugs under the fertilizer, tired of the animals and birds picking at the fertilizer, and tired of seeing the terrible mess at repotting time in the bottom of the pot with sludge there from a season of fertilizer, and that's only on the ones that need yearly repotting, Sorry, Grouper and Walter, I treat my plants with more respect.

Get a siphon injector and mix five gallons of cold water soluble fertilizer each week, (takes about five minutes) and fertilize each time you water, good fertilizer coverage and no mess. No smell, no bugs and no animals or birds. No clogged soil, and its very easy. You can fertilize year round if you want. There is no way to over fertilize if mixed correctly. Add liquid humus, I do, or vitamins or any other liquid supplements. easy peasy.

Good luck with whatever you do.....

Just remember that the nurse will inject your shot in your IV, not tape the poppy to your arm???? Think about that for a minute!!

 

[cmeg1]

Ive recently learned When phospherous is supplied mineraly there is no need for mycorhizs....and roots would expel the mycos for it being a pathogin.
If organic fertilizer....include mycorhizs so it will release phospherous to plant roots...roots will accept it then.
In both cases of organic or mineral....can suppliment rhizo bacteria and other biostimulants !!
Extremely helpful in both cases!

That is what I learned 3 days ago

Im experimenting with this mineral+Organic bio stimulant approach !!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I use both as well. Chemical for quick applications, when I desire my plant to take it up in a matter of days, I use organic for longer lasting support.

To answer your question "How long did it take for you to be satisfied?":
From organic to chemical: With fast growing herbs a few days, with trees within a few weeks.
From chemical to organic: After a season/2-3 months, both with herbs as well as with trees.

It all depends on how much it matters to you and your tree. The type and source of organic nutrient also makes a world of difference.

I'm willing to discuss microbiomes somewhere else in depth. But you can't really talk the benefits of organic vs. chemical without mentioning them. I'm all in favor of a microbiome, but to think we're culturing something healthy and diverse is just lying to ourselves. We're culturing whatever survives the harsh beating we give it, and that's 0.001% of the natural biome at most when it comes to diversity.

 

[Paulpash]

The black slime on the surface as well as insects colonising the cakes made me switch from a mix to just chemical. Slow release 6 month granular fert means that I can feed all 85 trees in about half an hour and they have all the major, minor and trace elements they need throughout the growing season. This means I get more time to wire & prune.

I sometimes supplement with Miracle Grow if I want to really pump up trees in early development and tomato feed for next year's blooms.

It's best to experiment and draw your own conclusions: results will vary markedly in relation to a number of factors.

Substrate, it's CEC value & % organic / inorganic
Watering frequency
Your available time.

Just like about everything in bonsai it's not a case of one size fits all. Eventually, when you have done a few years experimenting & watched their response you'll find the size that works for you and your trees.

 

[bwaynef]

wgw, thank you for your answer.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I first heard about humates back in the 1970's, in bonsai heard about them from @Smoke on one forum or another as soon as "Al Gore had invented the internet". When I "bought the farm", the Ag Extension Agent showed up and showed me data on humates, and soil carbon, and effects in blueberries.

But Smoke is right, there are many ways to get to the same point.

I have not seen good data as to concentrations of chemical fertilizer, but at "standard strengths" used for vegetables, probably about 1000 ppm total dissolved solids, the roots will slough off the exterior coating of bacteria and mycorrhiza. The outer coating is replaced, relatively quickly (days, or weeks) but I don't know if anyone knows if the species composition is changed.

Honestly, I don't know what to think about this factoid. Sloughing off the mycorrhiza, good? Bad? or Neutral? Depending on how you run the thought experiment, it can go any which way. I have not seen good data on long term health effects of this process.

 

[Smoke]

I don't think any paper in print or the internet can totally know what goes on with a plant in pot culture. The ins and outs of growth in the ground is so different from what goes on in a pot. While Both Walter and Dan live in upper latitudes and can get away with growing plants in pots for decades, their expertise would soon shrivel up in my climate. Their plants would start to show the ill effects of no repotting after about six years for conifers and three years for broadleaves. Ryan Neil is now the visiting expert at the central collection California here in Fresno. After Kenji Miyata, past expert, left for the East coast, and trying to grow plants here, he found out that this climate is way different than anything he had ever experienced. Ryan is being schooled here also. He will add to his bag of tricks after a few years here and be able to competently help people in more desert climates. What he does currently fails after some time here.

Pot culture here is way different than where Dan and Walter or even Ryan live. Fertilizing is the same deal. Have to find out what works best thru experimentation. This takes years of trial and error.

 

[River's Edge]

I use both for different stages, species and purposes. I use the organic for refinement stages and my best tree's.
You will notice a difference rather quickly based on my experience. Three to four weeks would be my best estimate.
Like every aspect of Bonsai, one needs to refine the routine within the parameters of their use and care practices!
For example because i am a great believer in refreshing the top media as a part of fall maintenance, the presence of organic fines and compaction is a non issue for me! ( Bonsai Care )
The type of organic i use does not create an issue with critters or problematic insects. ( product selection)
I also believe in regular systematic repotting practices as a way of rejuvenating and ensuring long term health of the bonsai. ( some level of repotting at least every two to three years)
In other words a lot of the so called problems do not need to be!

 

[bwaynef]

RE, thanks for your response.

What difference would be noted after 3-4 weeks?