Chinese Elm #6

ConorDash

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Although I do ever so slightly think this may not be a chinese elm.. Its leaves and bark look different to what I know, but I dont know much about differing species... All my chinese elm are much smaller and younger.

So this is a tree gifted, in the purchase of a few other trees from Bobby.

DSC_0067 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_0072 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_0076 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_0079 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
[Taken September 1st]

All of its branches were removed by Bobby this year, so these are all new growth this year.
Has some good character from its great bark, nebari, initial bit of movement in the lower trunk and some most of the way up:

DSC_0078 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

_____________________

Will allow it to grow for now, access in spring and clean up, ready for all the growth. Ill make sure to know what I want and where I want it. This is a much taller tree than what I am used to.

If you've any comments or criticisms, please go ahead. I'm looking forward to pruning and directing this one in spring, hopefully it will be vigorous and give me plenty of opportunities for a future design.
Full album with more pics, close and far away, here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmphLCy4
Thank you
 

ConorDash

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yeh just let it be for a season, it needs to regain some vigour

this is what i had in mind
33697340786_0b3d6529d4_c by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

Yeah I have that pic saved for referring to :). I need to do as you said, look up mature tree images but specifically look for elms which match the trunk I have here, to look at their branch structure. I have yet to do this, but no rush this year.

Your image, isn't that quite a triangle canopy, not necessarily indicative of an elm? I may be wrong.
 

ConorDash

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Some updated pics on this tree, after nearly 2 years. Some good growth on it, I expect this year to see more now it is now really well established in the pot and stretched its legs. I have wired most, allowed more growth. In 4-6 weeks, will see a good pruning.

I think I have made a mistake with this tree, I should have cut some branches back further. Critic and advise welcome.

DSC_1613 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

DSC_1615 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

DSC_1617 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

DSC_1619 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

DSC_1622 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
And this is what I love about this tree:

DSC_1620 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

DSC_1623 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr​
 

ConorDash

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Wow its been... 2 months, just under and thats how the tree used to look... I see it everyday and knew it was growing well but DAMN it grew.

DSC_1893 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_1895 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

Its an absolute beastly mess... the fertilizer has done well having now established roots well in the pot. Its been cut back, thankfully so it has more light and air all around.

DSC_1910 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_1911 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
DSC_1913 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr
 

ConorDash

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Right, there are a few things I don't like at the moment.
DSC_1911 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

The front most long branch.. this is the most ideal front, although now styled, it has a few, and this branch is sticking in the eye of those looking at it.. It has a bit of movement but for the most part, it looks like crap. I'm not entirely sure why I kept it. I am going to reduce it down by 3/4, today. I'd like something small still there to give more foliage, can cover the middle wound (if I ever want it covered.. can rotate if I dont) and it will cause live tissue to continue running and working on closing the wound more. Also, I like the branch, just not that long.

The other issue is the lowest, longest branch. As you can see by its height, I would like to keep this as a fairly tall tree. I thought about reducing, but when infront of me, I wanted it bigger. I think it will look better. So this long branch has been kept fairly long. It branches off, mid way and has slight taper. It could be reduced down more, to create more taper and movement and regrown to that height again... thats a possibility. I dont think leaving it would be that bad though. it will have plenty of branches and interest coming off of it, at the moment it is bare and so it looks worse. Open to thoughts.

Finally, the leader is quite tall and straight. It could be reduced to the branch that is there now, then regrown for an inch or so. Or, kept this way and branches will have to be grown to add interest to this. Currently, the later is the plan.
 

ConorDash

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No root work this year? No repotting?

No and no. I got it 2 years ago and it was fairly freshly in the pot. It was quite literally left to grow. I did some pruning as you see above in the thread but not much. Wanted all this growth, which i got, so I could work on it, which i did :).
Last year it established, started stretching out, got a light prune. This year is was roided up on fert and has exploded.
 

just.wing.it

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No and no. I got it 2 years ago and it was fairly freshly in the pot. It was quite literally left to grow. I did some pruning as you see above in the thread but not much. Wanted all this growth, which i got, so I could work on it, which i did :).
Last year it established, started stretching out, got a light prune. This year is was roided up on fert and has exploded.
Very nice!
Its looking good, the bark and root spread are killer.
 

BobbyLane

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i still think this is the best front with everything considered, the branch placement, the movement of the trunk and the general flow of the tree. your front the tree appears to be leaning back, the roots are better from that angle yes but there is more going on in the other front. but up to you, its your tree now.
33697340786_0b3d6529d4_c by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

got some nice thickening in the branches, i would of probably cut the long straights bits shorter. straight sections of branch over 2inch long rarely look good, unless you can get movement into them. branches that go horizontal rarely look good
 

ConorDash

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i still think this is the best front with everything considered, the branch placement, the movement of the trunk and the general flow of the tree. your front the tree appears to be leaning back, the roots are better from that angle yes but there is more going on in the other front. but up to you, its your tree now.
33697340786_0b3d6529d4_c by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

got some nice thickening in the branches, i would of probably cut the long straights bits shorter. straight sections of branch over 2inch long rarely look good, unless you can get movement into them. branches that go horizontal rarely look good

Yeah, I said above, ill be shortening 2 later today. Im not sure why I left so long. Although, i dont think its impossible to work with some longer.

This is the same front you mentioned:

DSC_1913 by Conor Dashwood, on Flickr

The problem is, it would make the very main, bottom most primary and biggest, pointing straight out.
But, i try not to focus on a front. For this tree and the maple i worked on yesterday, i did focus on a front and it helped me work them.. but still try not to lol
 

VAFisher

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I like this tree and I think you picked the right front also. If it was mine, I would remove that arching root on the left or try to flatten it somehow. That straight upper section would bother me too. I would probably chop it and regrow it with some movement if you want a taller tree. Nice work on it so far.
 

ConorDash

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I like this tree and I think you picked the right front also. If it was mine, I would remove that arching root on the left or try to flatten it somehow. That straight upper section would bother me too. I would probably chop it and regrow it with some movement if you want a taller tree. Nice work on it so far.
this is the angle the virt was done from
20170330_150302 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
33697340786_0b3d6529d4_c by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
before n after branch selection by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

the angle has a bit of everything. but as i said, its your tree now buddy:cool:

Good point about the arching root.

I have now shortened the 3 sections that I mentioned previously. Shortened the leader, as that straight section will bother me in time. One of the shoots that emerge, will be wired as new leader and will also give the chance at a change in direction. The other branches were shortened. One had a shoot there, wired now as a new leader for it, the other will be kept quite short, as it is quite forward facing.
The arching root was pinned down with a wire, and cut in a few places, to hopefully stimulate some root growth. The root that was hanging next to it, was removed.

Bobby, I am a believer in multiple fronts for a tree, so we can both have it our way. My personal front is because I like seeing more of that gnarly nebari.

Some rough pics:



 

BobbyLane

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Bobby, I am a believer in multiple fronts for a tree

sure i get that. but the issue you have with that angle is that the tree is leaning away, bowing away from you. this isnt just to do with Japanese culture, we know the Japanese are against a tree that bows away from the viewer because its seen as a lack of respect, maybe this tree doesnt like you, there is a lack of connection with owner and tree. when you greet someone in public you dont do it leaning away from them. i know we are not tied down to the japanese way of doing things, but some guidelines should be followed because imho the tree will just look better.
for me its also a matter of aesthetic, if youre standing at the foot of a large oak tree, it will never be as impressive or imposing if it is leaning backwards, where as if the tree is coming towards you, the large oak tree will always look more overpowering, it will always appear to be towering over the viewer and its the same in bonsai.

also the thing about having multiple fronts, sure fine. what was it that Walter pall said, trees in nature tend to look good from all angles. but you still need one 'preferred' front, for the tree to then look good from 'multiple' fronts is also down to the quality of the material and your styling prowess....
you can style a tree to look great from the front and back, but from the sides it looks as flat as a pancake! for a tree to really look good from multiple angles there is usually a bit of work involved.
i never wire a branch from the front and back without then seeing how this movement impacts the sides.......

so if youre to use that angle as your 'preferred' front then at next repotting i would suggest tilting the tree more towards you.
hope that makes sense.

just following the mantra of a tree having multiple fronts because you heard someone say it, but really you need to know what this means and why its important to a properly styled tree.
 
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ConorDash

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Bobby, I am a believer in multiple fronts for a tree

sure i get that. but the issue you have with that angle is that the tree is leaning away, bowing away from you. this isnt just to do with Japanese culture, we know the Japanese are against a tree that bows away from the viewer because its seen as a lack of respect, maybe this tree doesnt like you, there is a lack of connection with owner and tree. when you greet someone in public you dont do it leaning away from them. i know we are not tied down to the japanese way of doing things, but some guidelines should be followed because imho the tree will just look better.
for me its also a matter of aesthetic, if youre standing at the foot of a large oak tree, it will never be as impressive or imposing if it is leaning backwards, where as if the tree is coming towards you, the large oak tree will always look more overpowering, it will always appear to be towering over the viewer and its the same in bonsai.

also the thing about having multiple fronts, sure fine. what was it that Walter pall said, trees in nature tend to look good from all angles. but you still need one 'preferred' front, for the tree to then look good from 'multiple' fronts is also down to the quality of the material and your styling prowess....
you can style a tree to look great from the front and back, but from the sides it looks as flat as a pancake! for a tree to really look good from multiple angles there is usually a bit of work involved.
i never wire a branch from the front and back without then seeing how this movement impacts the sides.......

so if youre to use that angle as your 'preferred' front then at next repotting i would suggest tilting the tree more towards you.
hope that makes sense.

just following the mantra of a tree having multiple fronts because you heard someone say it, but really you need to know what this means and why its important to a properly styled tree.

Very fair enough.. This is a good message, good info, thank you. Genuinely? I forgot the damn thing tilted backwards!! LOL. You are very right about that. I will have a look at the tree today and get a better feel for a better angle.
I'm with you, we don't follow full on Japanese "rules" but certain ones, pretty much everyone really should, like the heaviest primary branch at the bottom, and basic taper in the trunk and branching. This leaning one is newer to me, I've heard of it before but not much.

Yeh it does seem like the mantra of multiple fronts is designed for a larger tree with more complex branch structure.. its difficult to make and see in a tree with so few. Ill have to rethink this!
 

VAFisher

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To me, it's ok to have a tree that starts out leaning away from the viewer if it comes back at some point. People may have different perspectives on that, but to me, it looks fine. I think you have an opportunity to use your front if you regrow the leader curving back towards the viewer. But its also hard to get a sense of how severe the lean is from pics.

This is not an elm but will give you an idea of what I mean.

View from the front and left side
20200616_130206.jpg
20200616_130245.jpg
 
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