Chinese Elm sporadic leaves yellowing and dropping

power270lb

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This is my Elm, been thriving to this point. Received and was very dry, so I upped the watering and it grew well. Trimmed some long branches, planted the cuttings and they're growing great as well. Since I trimmed the plant exploded and became much bushier. Occasionally, maybe one leave every other day I'd wake up and it'd be yellow then fall off if I touched it. Checking the soil and it dries relatively quick. The tree has responded positively to the watering but of late there's more frequency of random yellow leaves. 3-5 a day for the past few days. Just wondering the reasoning for this. When they do drop they look like the picture attached. Its only a couple here and there but of late it's happening a bit more than I'd like.
 

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leatherback

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it bein semi-evergreen, in spring they may shed old leaves. Assuming these are the old leaves, and if it is just a few a day, and the tree is growing happily, I would not be concerned.
 

Forsoothe!

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Leaves only have a lifespan of some amount of time. The leaves in the best exposure will last the longest, the more deeply buried in a cluster of crossing branching get less light and have a shorter lifespan. If these leaves that you are losing are the closest to the trunk, meaning the oldest on a given branch/twig, then that's perfectly normal. Also, this is the time of year where most of the leaves are all old and about to be replaced with a new spring flush, so the tree is cutting off supplies to the whole canopy in favor of buds as they begin to fatten and then expand in the next 6 weeks. Get your liquid ferts ready for use when you see all the buds get fat and kick the old leaves off. Caution: the more you feed, the bigger the leaves will be. Better to feed once when the buds begin to swell and then again when the whole canopy is full and leaves stop getting bigger (until the second flush). They will continue to add leaves at the tips more or less continuously. Trimming for appearance is an on-going process, too
 

power270lb

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Leaves only have a lifespan of some amount of time. The leaves in the best exposure will last the longest, the more deeply buried in a cluster of crossing branching get less light and have a shorter lifespan. If these leaves that you are losing are the closest to the trunk, meaning the oldest on a given branch/twig, then that's perfectly normal. Also, this is the time of year where most of the leaves are all old and about to be replaced with a new spring flush, so the tree is cutting off supplies to the whole canopy in favor of buds as they begin to fatten and then expand in the next 6 weeks. Get your liquid ferts ready for use when you see all the buds get fat and kick the old leaves off. Caution: the more you feed, the bigger the leaves will be. Better to feed once when the buds begin to swell and then again when the whole canopy is full and leaves stop getting bigger (until the second flush). They will continue to add leaves at the tips more or less continuously. Trimming for appearance is an on-going process, too
So when I first got it and after initial bounce back leaves were huge and very sporadic. Tree was very weepy so I cut it hoping to get better ramification and it did exactly that. Now some branches are weepy to the point they extend almost to the humidity tray. I started in late November so it gave me some confidence in doing something right. The cuttings I initially took all have roots a few inches long so I may just trim again and repeat the whole process while moving cuttings to a better light source.
 

power270lb

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it bein semi-evergreen, in spring they may shed old leaves. Assuming these are the old leaves, and if it is just a few a day, and the tree is growing happily, I would not be concerned.
Copy that thank you bro. I pulled on my cuttings and the roots are all a few inches long. Wondering how big of a pot I should move to and the best soil medium? Going to trim this tree again and repeat the same process. As far as soil I have 50+ lbs of Diatomaceous Earth, pumice, Lava rock, Fox farms ocean soil, sand, perlite etc. Can't seem to find anything that states best medium for 3-5 month old cuttings. Better draining? Soil that retains moisture etc.
 

leatherback

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Once rooted just treat them as you would any other tree. The hard part is passed. So just the same substrate you use for the parent plant.
 

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Yellow leaves now may indeed be simply change of older leaves.

This elm appears to be kept indoors?
Indoor Chinese elm is possible with ideal conditions but most people do not have ideal conditions and eventually the tree just gives up.

The pot also appears to be sitting with the base in water but as you mention it dries quickly the water is not permanent? Roots sitting in water for extended periods can cause problems.

Has it been repotted in the past few years? Roots of young trees grow rapidly and can quickly fill a small pot then health deteriorates. I find better growth after repot, root prune and fresh soil.

Just a few more possible reasons for yellow leaves on Chinese elm from my experience for you to consider.

I pulled on my cuttings and the roots are all a few inches long. Wondering how big of a pot I should move to and the best soil medium?
Small cuttings can go into 4" diameter pots - probably around 1/2 quart size? In standard nursery pots they will grow well in any good potting soil or in any good bonsai soil.
 

sorce

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You'll get more fluent information with the information present in the old threads.

This tree was kept in a different environment. When it was shipped, it got confused, it doesn't matter if it's 2 days or 2 weeks, no light means the tree goes WTF?, and it doesn't have an answer.

It's just exhibiting signs of trying to find that answer for itself.

It's in a new environment now, so what was it's patterning, it's cycle, is just trying to readjust.

It's only a couple more days till it can go outside?

All that weepy junk will fry outside anyway, so I would cut the entire thing naked right now.

I'm close to guaranteeing that's the safest move, for Horticulture and Design.

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

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It's still pretty early in the season to go outside.
 

power270lb

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Yellow leaves now may indeed be simply change of older leaves.

This elm appears to be kept indoors?
Indoor Chinese elm is possible with ideal conditions but most people do not have ideal conditions and eventually the tree just gives up.

The pot also appears to be sitting with the base in water but as you mention it dries quickly the water is not permanent? Roots sitting in water for extended periods can cause problems.

Has it been repotted in the past few years? Roots of young trees grow rapidly and can quickly fill a small pot then health deteriorates. I find better growth after repot, root prune and fresh soil.

Just a few more possible reasons for yellow leaves on Chinese elm from my experience for you to consider.


Small cuttings can go into 4" diameter pots - probably around 1/2 quart size? In standard nursery pots they will grow well in any good potting soil or in any good bonsai soil.
So I messed up a tad. I read enough opinions that I could keep it indoors when I received it in early December so I kept it indoors. I know better now and it'll be outside full time very soon. My indoor conditions in my opinion are more than sufficient. Have 3 spider farmer SF-1000s, humidifier, fan, mylar curtains all around and every tree has exploded. My curtain fig in only 3 months has added 8 inches to it's main branch and the branch came broken. It's not sitting in water but the water does graze the bottom of the pot.

Lol so glad you mentioned repot because I have a question. Received this and my ginseng grafted curtain fig in December. Figured they came repotted but now I'm seeing little roots poke through the top of the soil. Both trees have grown a ridiculous amount in only 3 months. I was going to post a thread asking if I should repot because I assumed the nursery it came from already did that prior to sending.
 

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power270lb

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You'll get more fluent information with the information present in the old threads.

This tree was kept in a different environment. When it was shipped, it got confused, it doesn't matter if it's 2 days or 2 weeks, no light means the tree goes WTF?, and it doesn't have an answer.

It's just exhibiting signs of trying to find that answer for itself.

It's in a new environment now, so what was it's patterning, it's cycle, is just trying to readjust.

It's only a couple more days till it can go outside?

All that weepy junk will fry outside anyway, so I would cut the entire thing naked right now.

I'm close to guaranteeing that's the safest move, for Horticulture and Design.

Sorce
I see some roots popping through the top of the soil on this and my ginseng grafted curtain fig. Received both in December and assumed it came repotted and trimmed up. Both trees have grown a ridiculous amount the fig 8" and the elm altogether a lot of branches even after trimming 12-15". Would u do a repot? The tree is wired in so I'm afraid to check and disturb everything, it's like once I commit that's it.
 

sorce

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The tree is wired in so

If it's secure you can gently clean off the top and do a bit of investigation without much worry.

As long as it's stable and you don't badger all the way to the drain holes, you can't really disturb too much of it's wired in well.

#1...don't worry, it's too tough and been growing well enough to make it the couple days indoors!

Don't sweat it!

Sorce
 

Shibui

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My indoor conditions in my opinion are more than sufficient. Have 3 spider farmer SF-1000s, humidifier, fan, mylar curtains all around and every tree has exploded. My curtain fig in only 3 months has added 8 inches to it's main branch and the branch came broken. It's not sitting in water but the water does graze the bottom of the pot.
Your indoor setup looks good for growing. If everything else is good that probably just leaves older leaves naturally falling at the end of winter. Nothing to worry about.

Received both in December and assumed it came repotted and trimmed up. Both trees have grown a ridiculous amount the fig 8" and the elm altogether a lot of branches even after trimming 12-15". Would u do a repot? The tree is wired in so I'm afraid to check and disturb everything, it's like once I commit that's it.
Top growth does not always mean a need to repot. Trees can grow well in a pot for several years before needing fresh soil.
The pot tapers well so it should be easy to slip the root ball out and check the roots. You should be able to cut the wire it is tied in with and then slide the whole root ball out intact to have a look and see what is going on down there.
Spring is a good time of year to repot Chinese elm if needed.
Just disturbing roots a bit will not be the end of any tree, especially tough ones like Chinese elm and ficus so even if some soil drops off the roots while you check just put it all back as best you can and the trees will be fine. If there is not enough roots to hold the soil together it does not need proper repotting.
 

Forsoothe!

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You need to plan how big and in what ideal form you want the trees to be. If left to their own devices, the branches will get longer and longer and more and more open and straggly, and if all you do if trim the ends occasionally you'll get a bush. We make bonsai by forcing them to grow into what we want, and if you wait too long to guide the trees you'll find yourself in a situation where remedial work is necessary to bring it back to what you want. That's always more painful and less productive than having a plan and closely following it. To that end you can look thru the myriad designs and and choose for each tree and keeping that ideal image in your mind's eye, keep managing the open space that separates trees from bushes. That's what we do: we make space.

By following the rules of bonsai, we make open space and shapes of clouds/layers of canopies by limiting growth that would keep our plants looking like trees instead of bushes. The basic rules are simple: foliage does not grow out of trunks or major branches; nothing is allowed to grow into the space between layers/clouds. Each cloud has an ideal shape and size and when something is threatening to grow beyond the image in our plan we cut back to an internode (at least) one below or within the outside limit. That will probably result in ramification of that stem so that two leaves will grow instead of the one that was there and they will be lower than the limit of the canopy. (This varies by species). The backbone of any cloud is a major branch that ramifies within the ideal shape. Trim to make twigs and foliage grow sideways, Foliage will always grow straight towards the sun: up, so the cloud fills in by ramifying as you trim stems to keep them inside the limits of the cloud shape. You remove one leaf back to the next internode and two grow from there. When there are more than four leaves on each of those stems you trim back to four leaves and they grow four new stems from each totaling eight now , ad infinitum. The leaves get a little smaller and closer together. The bottom of the major branch is bare and we can see the minor branches growing from it from underneath the cloud. Foliage thickly covers the upper side of the cloud so all we see are leaves from the top view.

Eventually you get to the point where the clouds are exactly where and what and how you want them, then the real difficult work begins. Leaves and twigs and branches are not forever and will need to be replaced, little-by-little, on a continuing basis. But that's another set of instructions.

So make a plan for each tree so you can minimize extra steps of excess growth followed by radical trimming. If you want them considerably bigger, then styling takes a back seat for now, but you still need a plan just like driving a car. You don't drive 60 mph and slam on your brakes at the stop sign, you slow down as you approach it so you can stop comfortably right where you want. Select a style and/or make a drawing of what you want. Change it or adjust it as you change your tree evolves.
Bonsai styles.JPG
Jim Kelly annotated.JPG
 

power270lb

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You need to plan how big and in what ideal form you want the trees to be. If left to their own devices, the branches will get longer and longer and more and more open and straggly, and if all you do if trim the ends occasionally you'll get a bush. We make bonsai by forcing them to grow into what we want, and if you wait too long to guide the trees you'll find yourself in a situation where remedial work is necessary to bring it back to what you want. That's always more painful and less productive than having a plan and closely following it. To that end you can look thru the myriad designs and and choose for each tree and keeping that ideal image in your mind's eye, keep managing the open space that separates trees from bushes. That's what we do: we make space.

By following the rules of bonsai, we make open space and shapes of clouds/layers of canopies by limiting growth that would keep our plants looking like trees instead of bushes. The basic rules are simple: foliage does not grow out of trunks or major branches; nothing is allowed to grow into the space between layers/clouds. Each cloud has an ideal shape and size and when something is threatening to grow beyond the image in our plan we cut back to an internode (at least) one below or within the outside limit. That will probably result in ramification of that stem so that two leaves will grow instead of the one that was there and they will be lower than the limit of the canopy. (This varies by species). The backbone of any cloud is a major branch that ramifies within the ideal shape. Trim to make twigs and foliage grow sideways, Foliage will always grow straight towards the sun: up, so the cloud fills in by ramifying as you trim stems to keep them inside the limits of the cloud shape. You remove one leaf back to the next internode and two grow from there. When there are more than four leaves on each of those stems you trim back to four leaves and they grow four new stems from each totaling eight now , ad infinitum. The leaves get a little smaller and closer together. The bottom of the major branch is bare and we can see the minor branches growing from it from underneath the cloud. Foliage thickly covers the upper side of the cloud so all we see are leaves from the top view.

Eventually you get to the point where the clouds are exactly where and what and how you want them, then the real difficult work begins. Leaves and twigs and branches are not forever and will need to be replaced, little-by-little, on a continuing basis. But that's another set of instructions.

So make a plan for each tree so you can minimize extra steps of excess growth followed by radical trimming. If you want them considerably bigger, then styling takes a back seat for now, but you still need a plan just like driving a car. You don't drive 60 mph and slam on your brakes at the stop sign, you slow down as you approach it so you can stop comfortably right where you want. Select a style and/or make a drawing of what you want. Change it or adjust it as you change your tree evolves.
View attachment 363567
View attachment 363568
Wow, my dude seriously can't thank you enough for that explanation. Think I'm going to find some classes in NYC and workshops. It'd be cool to have someone experienced look and give a nudge in the right direction. Really appreciate the advice bro. The main goal right now is bigger and more girth.
 

power270lb

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So it's still happening and I decided to check under the pot. Where there's two drainage holes there's fuzzy white mold. I'm dumb, filled the humidity trays too high. This has to be the reason right? I smelled the bottom of the pot but I don't smell rot all I smell is a combo of the wire it's attached to and soil. What should I do? Should I pull out anyway?
@Forsoothe! @Shibui @sorce
 
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leatherback

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I know you did not invite me to comment but..

What part of the crown is getting yellow? Old inner leaves or leave along the whole branch?

You mentuioned in your first pots that the soil dries out quickly. The substrate seems very loose mostly inorganic. As such, doubt it is the problem.
 

Shibui

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Remember earlier when some of us said that yellow leaves this time of year is normal for Chinese elm? It can be tempting to look for all manner of problems instead of accepting something way less sinister and natural is happening. There are lots of good fungi and many of them appear as white fluffy mold so while this could be bad it may not be. Hard to say for sure from this far away.

If it is a soil problem just letting the soil dry a little should allow the tree to recover but if you suspect the soil is now really bad or roots are bad it should be a good time of year to repot Chinese elm in NJ.
Some will say never repot a tree that is stressed but if bad soil or bad roots are what is causing stress then it makes sense to me to repot and remove the cause. Any trees I have had with root problems have recovered after repotting to rectify the causes.
There are so many possibilities with the info you have given it is hard to give really accurate advice.
 

power270lb

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I know you did not invite me to comment but..

What part of the crown is getting yellow? Old inner leaves or leave along the whole branch?

You mentuioned in your first pots that the soil dries out quickly. The substrate seems very loose mostly inorganic. As such, doubt it is the problem

I know you did not invite me to comment but..

What part of the crown is getting yellow? Old inner leaves or leave along the whole branch?

You mentuioned in your first pots that the soil dries out quickly. The substrate seems very loose mostly inorganic. As such, doubt it is the problem.
Oh dude totally forgot you my bad I just went up to the last three who replied. It's totally random and sporadic. The only thing I can figure is the tree is completely filled out atm and it's just gonna push out new growth and I'm just paranoid and the other is idk. So the tree soil came with fir bark, pumice, akadama but there's some kind of organic soil on the bottom and I put a skewer in and it dries quickly after a day. So Idk if I'm under or over watering. Probably just being paranoid, it's literally all over the place but are happening beginning of branch extending out. Off topic I'm trimming this thing up but the branches are semi hardwood. They're brown but with some bend. I want to grow these if possible but the semi hardwood cutting I just did they both didn't take. Plus want the tree to grow out, where is the best place to cut how close to the node?
 
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