Choosing demo material

[Darth Tanuki]

At the risk of bludgeoning an equine species to the afterlife, I would like to ask for feedback on the following scenario. You are the chairman of a bonsai convention and decide to bring in a headliner, say Master X from Europe. He will do a couple of workshops, and for the big draw, he will do a demo that an estimated 100 people will pay to see. Master X's fee for the demo is $500, and his airfare is about $1000 roundtrip, not to mention hotel fees and his meals. How much should be allotted to the expense of his demo material?

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Poink88]

Our club is doing this in a few months and we spent minimal amount on the materials. The coordinators planned ahead...spear headed collection trips couple years in advance and will use those local materials. Some are also donated.

The artists are Walter Pall, Colin Lewis, and Eric Wigert.

 

[rockm]

"Our club is doing this in a few months and we spent minimal amount on the materials. The coordinators planned ahead...spear headed collection trips couple years in advance and will use those local materials. Some are also donated"

Seems to me the club has invested a great deal in the material, just not upfront money. A couple of years of advance work finding adequate material is not "minimal." It takes work.

There have been a few embarassing club demos over the years in which very poor material has been provided to demonstrators (some of them are attending your meeting) in which those demonstrators have underwhelmed.

Ask them their opinions on this when you see them...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have brought Colin Lewis to Nashville once, Peter Warren to Birmingham twice, Bjorn Bjorholm once (he'll be back for a second visit in a few weeks), and am bringing Ryan Neil to town in November. The real questions we discussed in preparation for their visits were this:

1. What is the club's appetite to "subsidize" some or any of this venture? Once we determined how much the club agreed to cover through dues, we easily backed into the charges required to offset the remaining costs.

2. How will the demo cost be covered? If we are charging admission, will that fully offset the travel and demo costs charged by the master?

3. On to the material...what will be done with it? If you're going to raffle it off, then you can project how many tickets you'll sell to those 100 spectators.

4. Lastly, and you've been plenty vocal about this; you should start with the best material your group determines it can afford. When Peter was here in April '11, he styled a black pine that I bought for $400 two years previous and allowed to grow.

With the several clubs I've been part of, usually a member or local vendor has a good, rough yamadori that can produce good demo results for a decent price. Nursery pines aren't always the best at producing an "end product". Junipers and yews can be; but that will be up to the geographical area you're working in.

 

[Poink88]

I believe photos of the trees were submitted to the artists in advance for their approval.

 

[rockm]

I meant ask them their opinions on the "bad" vs "good" material brouhaha...

 

[buddhamonk]

Get a free demo tree. Lots of people would love to have their big, expensive trees worked on for free.

 

[Poink88]

I meant ask them their opinions on the "bad" vs "good" material brouhaha...

I believe we all know what a good material is. In a demo setting it is so much more important to have good material because each minute counts.

Just to clarify, I never saw the trees for the coming symposium but if Walter says they are good...I believe him. Unless he is just being polite but I doubt it. He usually says what is in his mind or not say anything at all (just the way I like it).

 

[Poink88]

Seems to me the club has invested a great deal in the material, just not upfront money. A couple of years of advance work finding adequate material is not "minimal." It takes work.

I agree and kudos to the organizers who are hard at work...even as we speak. Countless volunteer hours are donated to make this work...and I pray it does. The clubs (Austin and San Antonio) sure traded lots of effort to save some dollars.

Our older (mostly retired) members sure are moving and making things happen ...something the younger generation might not be as willing to take.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I agree and kudos to the organizers who are hard at work...even as we speak. Countless volunteer hours are donated to make this work...and I pray it does. The clubs (Austin and San Antonio) sure traded lots of effort to save some dollars.

Our older (mostly retired) members sure are moving and making things happen ...something the younger generation might not be as willing to take.

Working that far in advance and collecting yamadori is fantastic news. It is too rarely that well thought out. My kudos as well.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I believe we all know what a good material is. In a demo setting it is so much more important to have good material because each minute counts.

Hmmmmmmm. Doesn't each minute count in life as well? But I digress.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[PaulH]

For the GSBF convention last fall we purchased five demo trees ranging in cost from $500 to $1000. My co -chairs and I spent a lot of time traveling and looking at trees to find the very best we could afford within our budget. The styled trees were sold at auction at a small profit (not including the artists' fees). Our criteria in choosing trees were:
1. High quality material that people would want to own That could be auctioned at a profit.
2. Trees on which the demonstrators could use their individual skills to produce a dramatic change and improvement thereby providing and interesting and educational demonstration.
3. Our convention theme was California native trees so all the demo trees had to be indigenous to California.

For Kevin Willson we chose a large Coast Redwood collected by Mendocino Bonsai that had a lot of deadwood for Kevin to demonstrate his amazing carving technique. The result was incredible.
Kevin's redwood after styling.

David Nguy styled a California Juniper that he had collected himself.
Davids California Juniper (and his helper)

Ryan Neil performed a miracle transformation on a Utah Juniper that had been collected almost 20 years ago and never styled. The tree turned out so great that the people we bought it from bought it back in the auction!
Ryan working on the Utah Juniper.

 

[cascade]

Demo material

Whether the demo material is collected or purchased, the preparation of the material is essential. One of the most underestimated aspects of demo tree preparation is to ensure that the tree is growing in good soil. Or else it may not even survive the presentation.

Also, the chosen tree material should be season appropriate. I recall a BSF Convention, where the demostrator was asked to create a forrest of Bald Cypress material in the end of May.. Needless to say he just placed the individual trees (in pots) into the large tray and spent the rest of the allowed time on lecturing..

Good thread.

Best,
Dorothy

 

[Poink88]

Hmmmmmmm. Doesn't each minute count in life as well? But I digress.

In terms of my trees, not as much. I have several growing at the same time and use time to my advantage...let it help me fix the low quality trees.

For the record, I will take good quality over low quality anytime...question is which have more potential or better? Our difference is that I believe all tree imperfections/problems can be addressed...while you don't.

In our trident maple challenge...I see it faster to start from larger cutting than a seed. Ergo, any bigger trunked tree is ahead of a seed. Fixing a tree doesn't have to take a lifetime either. Some can be addressed by; chopping, air layering, carving, grafting, etc. I don't have to force myself and use the problem in my design if I can eliminate it. That is my belief but you may prove me wrong or (hopefully) vice-versa.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

"Our club is doing this in a few months and we spent minimal amount on the materials. The coordinators planned ahead...spear headed collection trips couple years in advance and will use those local materials. Some are also donated"

Seems to me the club has invested a great deal in the material, just not upfront money. A couple of years of advance work finding adequate material is not "minimal." It takes work.

There have been a few embarassing club demos over the years in which very poor material has been provided to demonstrators (some of them are attending your meeting) in which those demonstrators have underwhelmed.

Ask them their opinions on this when you see them...

I have seen more than a few over the years which is in part why I posted this question. It seems a poor investment to spend $1500 to $2000 to bring a professional in and provide them with a $100 or less tree. But it still happens over and over. When you are preparing a convention you have to consider all costs and then sweat it out if you will even make any money or lose money. However, why have a high caliber artist without the material to match. I am happy to see it seems we are starting to get of the mind frame of cutting costs on the demo material and that it is an important factor, not just an afterthought.

Anybody have a thought as to the dollar value a club should spend or obtain? A general rule of thumb such as 25% to 50% of the artists overall cost?

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[yenling83]

I agree with you again Darth. For top notch artists, i'd like to see top notch material. I like the idea of asking the club or asking outside of the club and everywhere else to source Demo material with a deal that the Professional will work on the tree and after the tree would be returned to the owner. I think I would try this approach and look for trees to purchase as well. I think the combo would give you the best chance of finding the best material.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

For the GSBF convention last fall we purchased five demo trees ranging in cost from $500 to $1000. My co -chairs and I spent a lot of time traveling and looking at trees to find the very best we could afford within our budget. The styled trees were sold at auction at a small profit (not including the artists' fees). Our criteria in choosing trees were:
1. High quality material that people would want to own That could be auctioned at a profit.
2. Trees on which the demonstrators could use their individual skills to produce a dramatic change and improvement thereby providing and interesting and educational demonstration.
3. Our convention theme was California native trees so all the demo trees had to be indigenous to California.

For Kevin Willson we chose a large Coast Redwood collected by Mendocino Bonsai that had a lot of deadwood for Kevin to demonstrate his amazing carving technique. The result was incredible.
View attachment 31723Kevin's redwood after styling.

David Nguy styled a California Juniper that he had collected himself.
View attachment 31724Davids California Juniper (and his helper)

Ryan Neil performed a miracle transformation on a Utah Juniper that had been collected almost 20 years ago and never styled. The tree turned out so great that the people we bought it from bought it back in the auction!
View attachment 31725Ryan working on the Utah Juniper.

That is really good to hear that the quality artists were able to demonstrate to their full potential. I wish that were the norm. Great job.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I agree with you again Darth. For top notch artists, i'd like to see top notch material. I like the idea of asking the club or asking outside of the club and everywhere else to source Demo material with a deal that the Professional will work on the tree and after the tree would be returned to the owner. I think I would try this approach and look for trees to purchase as well. I think the combo would give you the best chance of finding the best material.

A potential problem with the artist working on a private individual's tree is the grumblings from the crowd about how they don't get a chance to buy raffle tickets to win the tree. Then the complaints about less revenue for the convention and why does that guy get his tree worked on (even if that guy pays the artist fee). Been there done that. Just another mind frame that needs to change. It's not about winning the raffle. It's not about banking more money for the club. It's about bonsai education and continuing to raise the bar.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Whether the demo material is collected or purchased, the preparation of the material is essential. One of the most underestimated aspects of demo tree preparation is to ensure that the tree is growing in good soil. Or else it may not even survive the presentation.

Also, the chosen tree material should be season appropriate. I recall a BSF Convention, where the demostrator was asked to create a forrest of Bald Cypress material in the end of May.. Needless to say he just placed the individual trees (in pots) into the large tray and spent the rest of the allowed time on lecturing..

Good thread.

Best,
Dorothy

Very good often overlooked points! Many don't recognize that the artists reputation is on the line, even months or more after the tree is worked on. If it dies, it is all too easy to try to blame the artist.

Do you care to comment on the soil you would like to see the demo tree in, or is that taboo on this forum?

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[johng]

another question...

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think most here would agree that the traditional Demo dog and pony show is really of little benefit to anyone including the material......they can be very boring, results vary tremendously, few presenters can work and talk well at the same time, and most often the process ends up with a dead tree at some point in the future, especially if raffled off to someone without the knowledge to provide appropriate aftercare... After seeing and giving dozens and dozens of demos like this over the last 20 years I struggle to see the benefit!!!

So, my question is this...why do we keep doing them the same old way?

Some other thoughts and potential alternatives..
1. It seems like we look to Japan for everything bonsai...well...they don't do demos like this in Japan so why do we?
2. I have seen a couple European shows put several artists on the stage simultaneously...all working on different material...as most are working only one is talking to the audience.
3. Personally, I get much more insight from critiques than I do demos...of course every person is different so the critiques vary but on a whole, for me, they are always more beneficial than a demo.
4. As a presenter, I have been involved in a number of demos with multiple people(3 in my case) working on the same material...Although I admit there is as much entertainment going on as there is legitimate info be shared, we have always gotten very good feedback from the audience.
5. Perhaps one of my best experiences as a presenter occurred in a little different situation. My partner and I did a dog and pony show demo but could not finish everything in the 2 hour time limit. After the demo...we moved everything out into a large hall and continued to work for the next several hours and for any and all to see. In this informal setting, people were comfortable enough to get close to work and ask questions. A few even helped! In the end, we had nearly as large of crowd around us as we had had during the demo...we just worked and casually talked as we took our time to finish the composition the way it should be done. Although this occurred more than 10 years ago, I still occasionally get someone remembering it fondly.
6. No teacher would ever work this way on their own material...time limits, trying to be entertaining while focusing on the task at hand, pushing material beyond the limits of healthy horticulture, and then provide the material with inexperienced aftercare....they just don't work that way...

So, I ask again, WHY DO WE KEEP DOING IT THE SAME WAY?????
John

and Mr. Vader... if you are planning for the typical demo, one of the criteria I would consider for the material is the transformation value...how much will the material change...the greater the change, the greater the shock and awe potential...