chopping a black pine down

[YukiShiro]

Hello!

I have a question I need answered

I want to chop a black pine I have recently acquired down to a branch lower down on the trunk. Do I have to gradually reduce the top to try and invigorate that lower branch and not weaken the tree by taking off too much foliage in one go?

Thnx in advance

Will post a photo tomorrow

 

[nathanbs]

a pic will help because the age and health of the tree can give different outcomes to the chop you want to do including the death of the tree if it is not in good health or perhaps its very old.

 

[YukiShiro]

The tree is very healthy nathan, last years candles where about a foot long some even longer...I cut them off and the tree has happily pushed new candles from needle buds and secondary terminal buds, and adventitious buds without missing a beat. What I am worried about is the amount of foliage I will take off...I have chopped before on black pines...but no chop I've done was as drastic. I made airlayers too, they will come off in spring, since I can already spot white roots hitting the plastic bag. And when is the best time to do the chop? Autumn, to prevent bleeding?

Ps the tree is 10 to 15 years old, so its relatively young still...

 

[JudyB]

pictures... please? So good advice can be given...

 

[nathanbs]

based on what you are saying about the health youre good to go but possibly being 15 years old may be a bit old. I would have to rely on others for a tree of that age. If it was less than 10 i would say you can safely chop to one remaining medium to large branch and you will likely get a bunch of back budding as well below the chop. I have had bad luck doing this at the same time as a repot. wait a year in my opinion. Winter is a good time little to no sap flow. leave a stub and reduce later

 

[Adair M]

Herman,

I would wait until you take the airlayers off, and see what you have left.

I chopped an eight foot tall JBP down to the first whirl, leaving about 4 inches above the whorl. I removed 80% of the folliage with that chop. I did this last March. That's spring for us. Sure, it bled some, but it didn't kill it. The trunk where I made the cut was about the diameter of a soda can. I need to remove more branches from the whorl, and I'll do this next month.

Pruned the roots,too, reduced them by 1/2 and put it into bonsai soil. All inorganic. Tree didn't miss a beat. And we had 100+ degree days in the summer.

My plan is to use the whorl branches I'm cutting off as scions to graft on branches down below the whorl.

It's a project.

JBP are remarkably vigorous. Your pine should do well if it is as vigorous as you say it is.

 

[0soyoung]

Hello!

I have a question I need answered

I want to chop a black pine I have recently acquired down to a branch lower down on the trunk. Do I have to gradually reduce the top to try and invigorate that lower branch and not weaken the tree by taking off too much foliage in one go?

There are two considerations that I can see (and neither of them require a photo).

First, the tree is dormant right now. Since all storage is local (i.e., starch in living cells), chopping now does not take anything away from what is left; i.e., the remaining tree has the same reserves for starting up this spring as before the chop.

Second, there isn't much of an auxin flow right now. Whereas, if you waited until mid-summer (June-ish), chopping would collapse the auxin flow and give you the best shot at getting adventitious buds on the remaining trunk. This will provoke the strongest damage response (i.e., resin/sap oozing), but it will also leave the last half of the season to build up reserves for the following season.

The question, I believe, is back to you - what do you want to accomplish?

• No new buds on the trunk and branch you save = chop it all now.
• Patient, but want chance at adventitious budding on the trunk = chop it all in June-ish
• Impatient, but want chance at adventitious budding on the trunk = partial chop now, rest in June-ish.

 

[Dav4]

Osoyoung, the op is in South Africa...mid summer there.

FWIW, I've always tried to reduce pines in stages, depending on how much needs to be removed to achieve the goal. The younger and healthier a tree is, the more likely the tree will recover from aggressive pruning...the older or less healthy a tree is, the more cautious I would be. I suspect, based on what you've said, you will be ok removing a fair amount of the foliage without any undue weakening of the tree.

 

[cmeg1]

I am for doing it in stages and using it as sacrifice leader.I prune black pine in the fall.

 

[YukiShiro]

First of all I want to thank everyone that replied

Secondly @ adair and dav4, lol, I didn't think anyone would remember me since I posted that little shohin black pine of mine last year it kicked the bucket btw I had to do a emergency repot, and I don't know something went wrong...

I will ofcourse wait with the chop until I can remove those layers, black pines are like gold here, except that you can't ill say that again CAN'T find any decent stock for bonsai...so I'm not going to miss my chance at growing and developing my own stock...even if it means I will be an old grumpy man before I see them styled to a decent level...

I think I will go with caution and remove the top in stages, spring will see the airlayers come off(5 of them), then maybe I should pull some needles on top to ensure the future leader will get enough sun and sapflow to let it bulk up some and maybe a repot into better draining medium. Then next autumn if I feel the future leader is strong enough, I will remove the top and pray for the best...

For judy and nathan, to satisfy their curiosity here are some pics
Last years candles before I cut them off

The future leader is positioned just above my thumb


Lastly to answer the question of what I want to achieve:

I want to get rid of a mass off branches coming from the first whorl, it looks like someone tried to broom it...it already resulted in reverse taper and will only get worse, if I don't chop and only remove all those branches save one to use as first branch, then there will always be huge ugly scars, 8 of them to be exact...

Thnx for all the help
Herman

 

[bonsai barry]

I only have a couple of pines, so I'm certainly not an expert, but I wonder about the health of the branch. Compared to the branches just above it, it seems a little weak. If I were going to make a chop I would Leave one or two of the branches above it for insurance.

If you did the chop in stages, you would have the added advantage of encouraging more aggressive growth in the trunk. If you make the chop now, the trunk's growth will slow down considerably.

 

[Adair M]

Herman,

While I applaud your boldness at wanting to induce some taper into your future tree, I'm not sure that's the best branch to target as your new leader. Usually with pines, you would leave two branches when you chop: one to become the new leader, and another to become a branch on the outside of the curve of the trunkline.

Even before you make the chop, you could prepare for this by selecting the two future branches (leader and branch) and apply some wire to get them going in the directions you want. Then, when you make the chop you already have a head start.

When selecting your two keeper branches, see if you can chop so that you have just one large cut to heal rather than 4 or five smaller ones. Ideally, your branch will be lower, on the bottom of the diagonal chop. This will keep the sap flow going up to that point, and the leader on the opposite side will keep the sap going on up. Then, you'll have no dieback.

Courage!

 

[YukiShiro]

and then another hurdle...o wei...

Hello Adair

What you just told me, makes a whole lot of good sense, but leaves me with a HUGE problem. But I have an idea. But before I dive into my idea, let me first explain the problem:

I have no branch that can be on the lower end of the diagonal cut, I'm not only trying to create movement in the trunk, but also removing an ugly arse cluster two inches above the branch I want to chop to.

Will it be possible to graft a branch in place lower than where I want to cut and chop it down after a few seasons, when the graft and the branch(new leader) are very strong and will be able to maintain the sapflow?

Here is a sketch to help out:


I'm in no rush, because more time will allow me to take more layers. I seem to have a knack for it, all my layers now have white roots showing through the plastic XD. I'm already eyeing where to layer next, so if I have to graft and wait for two years to chop I'm okay with that

Herman

 

[jferrier]

If you chop it down to that branch

I expect you'll have a dead tree. I've read to reduce pines by about 1/3 at a time as a rule of thumb. If you want to cut to that branch eventually, start reducing from the top in stages so that bottom will gain vigor. Don't rush it. Make a large reduction and wait to see if the tree recovers well before reducing again. Be prepared to let it take a few years to get to that point and let that trunk benefit from the top growth so it will grow larger during this time.

 

[Adair M]

Herman,

If you graft, you might as well graft on some branches lower down as well.

I think the thing to do is let it grow strong, take your air layers when they're ready, and re-assess this tree at that time.

 

[YukiShiro]

Thanx Adair

Will graft more branches on lower down as well. Can you point me to a good tutorial on grafting black pines?

Yes, a bad plan is a plan that can not be altered or modified to fit the situation. Though I think I know what to do now, thanx for all the replies, advice and encouragement guys

I will remove those layers next spring, graft on some branches where I will need them(sacrifice branches and one first branch) then set some more layers to gradually reduce the top and give the grafts and the new furure leader ample time to grow and become strong before I chop it two or three springs from now.

Herman

 

[Neli]

I thought you new it all????
Graft after the trunk chop and not now. That place has its own branch that can not grow strong...Imagine you graft another one next to it...Do you think it will grow or take?. Resources will be allocated to the top part of the tree and I doubt any to that area.
If you had no branches in that area I would have advised grafting and gradual reduction and keeping the growth on top in check so you prioritize the new graft.
Here is an example for you of pictures from Japan how a trunk chop is done.
Hope it helps you and sorry to hear that you killed your shohin.
I think I shall write a tutorial on how to graft Japanese pines on my blog just for you...He he he!

 

[YukiShiro]

I thought you new it all????
Graft after the trunk chop and not now. That place has its own branch that can not grow strong...Imagine you graft another one next to it...Do you think it will grow or take?. Resources will be allocated to the top part of the tree and I doubt any to that area.
If you had no branches in that area I would have advised grafting and gradual reduction and keeping the growth on top in check so you prioritize the new graft.
Here is an example for you of pictures from Japan how a trunk chop is done.
Hope it helps you and sorry to hear that you killed your shohin.
I think I shall write a tutorial on how to graft Japanese pines on my blog just for you...He he he!

this is really funny Neli, same old same old, now comes with added ignorance brought on due to a three week mastership in Japan...the air layers where harvested and the tree styled...the grafting was not meant for the base, re read the post before you try to sound clever while being vindictive and expose your own IQ

 

[Neli]

Thanx Adair

Will graft more branches on lower down as well. Can you point me to a good tutorial on grafting black pines?

Yes, a bad plan is a plan that can not be altered or modified to fit the situation. Though I think I know what to do now, thanx for all the replies, advice and encouragement guys

I will remove those layers next spring, graft on some branches where I will need them(sacrifice branches and one first branch) then set some more layers to gradually reduce the top and give the grafts and the new furure leader ample time to grow and become strong before I chop it two or three springs from now.

Herman

I think I can read very well. Still the same primitive mentality?

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I have chopped 80% of mass a few times and have yet to hurt the tree. I recently did a chop somewhat like yours due to a horrible reverse taper situation that had occurred. I could have carved around it and made a tree but my theory is in 5 years I could have a good tree or in 6 years I can have an amazing tree (hopefully). I opted for amazing.