Cjr pine yamadori

[Cajunrider]

I collected a pine tree in my friend's land. He doesn't know what it is. It has twisted needle pairs and is straight as an arrow. Is it lodgepole pine?

 

[Potawatomi13]

I collected a pine tree in my friend's land. He doesn't know what it is. It has twisted needle pairs and is straight as an arrow. Is it lodgepole pine?View attachment 223418View attachment 223419View attachment 223422
View attachment 223421

Lodgepole not likely your location. Unfamiliar pines your location otherwise.

 

[Adair M]

Most likely a Virginia Pine.

 

[Adair M]

Just so you know...

The term “yamadori” literally means “from the mountains”. But it’s used to described trees collected from the wild. But, implied in the term is the concept that there is some age to the collected tree or other characteristic that would make it “collectible”.

What you have there is a seedling. Sure, you didn’t plant the seed, it was a wild tree, but it’s not a yamadori.

Now, don’t be insulted! Please! I’m just trying to educate you so you don’t embarass youself.

Which is not to say that you can’t make something good out of your newly collected seedling!

I own a similiar tree! Mind you, it was collected as a seedling on the island of Mikawa about 80 years ago. Before JBP seedling cuttings became the rage, there was this Japanese fellow who would go collect seedlings from the forest floor. And train them into bonsai.

Here it is, some 80+ years after collection:

 

[Cajunrider]

Just so you know...

The term “yamadori” literally means “from the mountains”. But it’s used to described trees collected from the wild. But, implied in the term is the concept that there is some age to the collected tree or other characteristic that would make it “collectible”.

What you have there is a seedling. Sure, you didn’t plant the seed, it was a wild tree, but it’s not a yamadori.

Now, don’t be insulted! Please! I’m just trying to educate you so you don’t embarass youself.

Which is not to say that you can’t make something good out of your newly collected seedling!

I own a similiar tree! Mind you, it was collected as a seedling on the island of Mikawa about 80 years ago. Before JBP seedling cuttings became the rage, there was this Japanese fellow who would go collect seedlings from the forest floor. And train them into bonsai.

Here it is, some 80+ years after collection:

View attachment 223440

Thanks for the correction. It's all good.
I actually know the literal meaning of the word but took liberty anyway because down here any mound of substantial height is a mountain and I collected this and my live oaks all from a known Atakapan Indian mound in an area named after crying eagles. Notice that no plants other than those I collected at that mound were called yamadori. However, I will stop using the word to stay true to its meaning.

There are much larger trees there but I just took a seedlings to find out what it is. I think you are correct that it is Virginia pine. Even though my Indian friends told me they got these pines from the mountains decades ago and they are not common at all where I am, I think you are right. Thanks for the ID.

I can dig up a much larger one and chop it to the lowest branch. Is that advisable?

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for the correction. It's all good.
I actually know the literal meaning of the word but took liberty anyway because down here any mound of substantial height is a mountain and I collected this and my live oaks all from a known Atakapan Indian mound in an area named after crying eagles. Notice that no plants other than those I collected at that mound were called yamadori. However, I will stop using the word to stay true to its meaning.

There are much larger trees there but I just took a seedlings to find out what it is. I think you are correct that it is Virginia pine. Even though my Indian friends told me they got these pines from the mountains decades ago and they are not common at all where I am, I think you are right. Thanks for the ID.

I can dig up a much larger one and chop it to the lowest branch. Is that advisable?

Virginia pines are only so-so as bonsai. Yes, they originate from the foothills of the mountains. Not a lowlands tree, nor a high mountain tree. The twist in the needle will always keep them looking “untidy”. They don’t really fatten up their trunks as quickly as other pines. They tend to have long internodes. The bark tends to have a reddish color, and becomes flaky and falls off rather than develop thick plates.

None of the above attributes are favorable for bonsai. The only thing that is positive is they do tolerate decandling, so you can get them to have short needles.

If you were very competent in growing pines, having a Virginia would be a fun challenge. However, for learning, you will find them immensely frustrating. They are not as bad as Eastern White Pines, but still... a beginner should learn on something that has a proven track record. Bonsai is a hard enough challenge even with the “easy” material!

It’s good that you got permission to take the tree, but I would never take anything from an Indian mound.

It’s not the “mountain” or hill that makes a tree a yamadori. A bald cypress collected from a swamp is considered a yamadori, if it shows age and character. The “mountain” is alluding to how the whole thing got started with Chinese monk climbing up into the mountains, and seeing the trees on the tops of the mountains, and how they were naturally dwarfed by the harsh weather conditions. They collected them, brought them back home, and kept them in pots. Thus, “yamadori”.

 

[Cajunrider]

The Indian family are the one giving me the permission because I am helping them clear the mound of unwanted vegetation. Normally I would stay away from Indian mounds as well but this is done from an invitation. If anything interesting come from these trees, I likely will give it to them since they come from a mound under their care

I will take our advice and stay away from the Virginia pine. I'm a novice. No sense to heap me more unnecessary challenge.

I'm a 63 yr old guy originally from Asia and do travel abit. I'm quite familiar with the stories of the monks including the ones where they collect tree. I used to study under them

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Virginia pines are only so-so as bonsai. Yes, they originate from the foothills of the mountains. Not a lowlands tree, nor a high mountain tree. The twist in the needle will always keep them looking “untidy”. They don’t really fatten up their trunks as quickly as other pines. They tend to have long internodes. The bark tends to have a reddish color, and becomes flaky and falls off rather than develop thick plates.

None of the above attributes are favorable for bonsai. The only thing that is positive is they do tolerate decandling, so you can get them to have short needles.

If you were very competent in growing pines, having a Virginia would be a fun challenge. However, for learning, you will find them immensely frustrating. They are not as bad as Eastern White Pines, but still... a beginner should learn on something that has a proven track record. Bonsai is a hard enough challenge even with the “easy” material!

It’s good that you got permission to take the tree, but I would never take anything from an Indian mound.

It’s not the “mountain” or hill that makes a tree a yamadori. A bald cypress collected from a swamp is considered a yamadori, if it shows age and character. The “mountain” is alluding to how the whole thing got started with Chinese monk climbing up into the mountains, and seeing the trees on the tops of the mountains, and how they were naturally dwarfed by the harsh weather conditions. They collected them, brought them back home, and kept them in pots. Thus, “yamadori”.

Generally, I very much agree with this advice. I’d like to make one small point... I think Virginia pine is one of the many native species to the US that have potential to become very good, if not great bonsai. They just need more study and work. In particular, I think the bark is plus, not a negative. The reddish hue against deadwood has the potential to give an interesting display of color, not unlike the red/white look of junipers.

A collected V pine, before


And after some work



Also, I’m not sure we have to scare people away from using natives like the V pine. Like anything bonsai, research, study, find help, make mistakes, keep learning, etc. that’s the only way we will advance American bonsai. That’s my $.02

 

[Cajunrider]

Generally, I very much agree with this advice. I’d like to make one small point... I think Virginia pine is one of the many native species to the US that have potential to become very good, if not great bonsai. They just need more study and work. In particular, I think the bark is plus, not a negative. The reddish hue against deadwood has the potential to give an interesting display of color, not unlike the red/white look of junipers.

A collected V pine, before
View attachment 223457

And after some work
View attachment 223458


Also, I’m not sure we have to scare people away from using natives like the V pine. Like anything bonsai, research, study, find help, make mistakes, keep learning, etc. that’s the only way we will advance American bonsai. That’s my $.02

I'm not easily scared off anything. However, I have limited time so I have to pick and choose what I work on. Your tree gives me some ideas as to what I should do with mine. Thanks.

 

[jeanluc83]

I would be surprised if your tree makes it to summer. Pines generally don't take too kindly to bare rooting and appears that it was put into potting soil that will be too water retentive. Since the seedling is only a few years old so you might get lucky but I wouldn't bet the farm on this tree.

 

[Cajunrider]

I would be surprised if your tree makes it to summer. Pines generally don't take too kindly to bare rooting and appears that it was put into potting soil that will be too water retentive. Since the seedling is only a few years old so you might get lucky but I wouldn't bet the farm on this tree.

That tree was growing in well saturated soil even though it was on a mound. I dug it out of the ground carefully because I wanted to keep the soil. However, as I held the trunk off the ground all the wet soil slid right off the roots. It is planted in 60% NAPA oil dry/30% pine bark/10% coconut husk. The mix drains really well. What you see on the ground in the picture is some of the wet coconut husk that's really dark. It's not what I have in the pot. The only thing I'm concerned about was that I cut off a big chunk of that huge tap root.

It was destined to be removed from the mound. If it lives it lives, no worries from me. There are many more on the mound that I'll be cleaning out in upcoming days.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Cajunrider
When you are back digging on the mound, keep an eye out for American persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, Black gum Nyssa sylvatica, Callicarpa americana - American beautyberry, and any of the native Ilex. I really don't know the pines in your area.

 

[Cajunrider]

@Cajunrider
When you are back digging on the mound, keep an eye out for American persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, Black gum Nyssa sylvatica, Callicarpa americana - American beautyberry, and any of the native Ilex. I really don't know the pines in your area.

Will do. So far I haven't seen any persimmon but there may be some holly.

It is kind of a privilege to be invited to help clear the mound. We are trying to clear the ground and only keep some beautiful specimen and prune them to shape. Then they will smooth out the mound for proper drainage and plant grass on the clear ground.

 

[Adair M]

Generally, I very much agree with this advice. I’d like to make one small point... I think Virginia pine is one of the many native species to the US that have potential to become very good, if not great bonsai. They just need more study and work. In particular, I think the bark is plus, not a negative. The reddish hue against deadwood has the potential to give an interesting display of color, not unlike the red/white look of junipers.

A collected V pine, before
View attachment 223457

And after some work
View attachment 223458


Also, I’m not sure we have to scare people away from using natives like the V pine. Like anything bonsai, research, study, find help, make mistakes, keep learning, etc. that’s the only way we will advance American bonsai. That’s my $.02

Indeed, this is what VP are best at: literati.

But neither VP nor literati are “beginner friendly”.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Generally, I very much agree with this advice. I’d like to make one small point... I think Virginia pine is one of the many native species to the US that have potential to become very good, if not great bonsai. They just need more study and work. In particular, I think the bark is plus, not a negative. The reddish hue against deadwood has the potential to give an interesting display of color, not unlike the red/white look of junipers.

A collected V pine, before
View attachment 223457

And after some work
View attachment 223458


Also, I’m not sure we have to scare people away from using natives like the V pine. Like anything bonsai, research, study, find help, make mistakes, keep learning, etc. that’s the only way we will advance American bonsai. That’s my $.02

Absolutely! Great job,

 

[Vance Wood]

Not trying to pillory all of the dissenters on Virginia Pines but most of what I have heard are remarks from people who have not tried to grow one. If you go back into the archives of this site and one other you will find that I spent a lot of time and intellectual investment in proving the Mugo Pine can make a decent bonsai in North America. I have however seen a Virginia Pine up close and personal that is a really nice non-literati bonsai, grown by one of the members of this forum. He lives in West Virginia and the tree is Yamadori in the real sense.

 

[augustine]

OP,

I am of the opinion that VA pine can make nice bonsai but we don't see many because it's very difficult to find one with a good trunk. Everything I see here in central md is straight plus they shed lower branches. Additionally they need to be collected with a decent root ball. They take a very long time to thicken in a container. Put it in the ground at the appropriate time, let some sacrifice branches grow and prune to preserve lower growth when it gets vigorous (still allowing the sacrifices to run).

 

[Cajunrider]

OP,

I am of the opinion that VA pine can make nice bonsai but we don't see many because it's very difficult to find one with a good trunk. Everything I see here in central md is straight plus they shed lower branches. Additionally they need to be collected with a decent root ball. They take a very long time to thicken in a container. Put it in the ground at the appropriate time, let some sacrifice branches grow and prune to preserve lower growth when it gets vigorous (still allowing the sacrifices to run).

I can find bigger ones if I am determined to do a VA pine. However, for now I'm letting things be. I will play around with the little seedling for kicks but will not pursue bigger ones. There are only so many hours in a day

 

[Cajunrider]

@Cajunrider
When you are back digging on the mound, keep an eye out for American persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, Black gum Nyssa sylvatica, Callicarpa americana - American beautyberry, and any of the native Ilex. I really don't know the pines in your area.

I've found some Ilex at the fence of a pasture. I may dig it up later. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Cajunrider]

It is showing tiny candles and the weak branches at the bottom are showing life. I'm hopeful.