Clarification of fall repots on pines please.

Mike Corazzi

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I'm perplexed about the fall repots on pines.
How do they get new root action in winter?
They extend candles in spring and.... I thought.... that meant activity.

So... what does the tree do after fall?

Thanks ahead for info. :)
 

River's Edge

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I'm perplexed about the fall repots on pines.
How do they get new root action in winter?
They extend candles in spring and.... I thought.... that meant activity.

So... what does the tree do after fall?

Thanks ahead for info. :)
Hi Mike
The difficulty with your question is the general terms, Fall, Spring, Pine :).
The simple answer is that the best time to repot most pines is spring just before the buds swell. Some species are more vigorous than others. Another time that works is late summer,early fall. The later time in the year, it is best to choose repots that do not involve heavy root pruning just before winter.
The exceptions are: location and climates, level of skill, experience and aftercare facilities.
In your location as in mine, for most pines there is some root activity all year long except during very short colder spells. In other colder locations there is a longer period of dormancy until temperatures warm.
 

0soyoung

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The simple answer is that the best time to repot most pines is spring just before the buds swell.
Of course, you must know that I disagree.

All trees change their growth mode(s) shortly after the summer solstice. Prior, there is a brief burst of root growth about the time buds begin to swell, but after that most carbohydrates are consumed making new tissues above ground. Shortly after the passage of the longest daylight day, this slows and more carbohydrate and auxin are available to drive root growth. By this time every species has a canopy of new, highly productive foliage.

One should avoid root work anytime stem extension is occurring as a good supply of water is required (extension occurs by water filling cellular vacuoles, enlarging them before the cell walls are fixed). Some angiosperms, such as maples, and some conifers will produce new stem extensions after the solstice. These times are not conducive to root work, pre/post summer solstice.

No tree grows when temperatures are outside the range of 40F/5C to 95F/35C. The rate of growth increases with temperature above 40F/5C attaining a maximum near, but definitely less than 95F/35C. This is a consequence of the rate of photosynthesis remaining fixed at the same level when it is hotter than 95F/35C, whereas metabolic reactions 'unfixing carbon continue to increase with temperature. Maximum root growth rates peak at much lower temperatures around 70F/25C because they must be covered with a film of water to remain moist (oxygen solubility in water decreases with increasing temperature, whereas the rate at which oxygen molecules move through water increases).

The significance of all this is that trees will, in principle, repair root damage much faster in summer than spring because it is warmer. Of course this isn't the case if daytime temperatures are above 95F/35C for most of those hours, it is not a good time for root work Likewise, it is not a particularly good time for root work if one cannot also keep root zone temperatures in the neighborhood of 70F/25C (get an inexpensive meat thermometer probe and stick it in the pot). In cooler climates where these upper limits are not much of a problem, summer repotting definitely can be better than repotting in spring. The spring repotting window is only a few short weeks long, whereas it is months long after the summer solstice.

In hotter climes, like yours @Mike Corazzi, it may be nearly impossible to meet these requirements in summer; late-winter/early-spring may well be your only choice. Indeed, you do want to wait until buds begin to swell as this is evidence of root activity. Even in dormancy, trees loose moisture to dry(-ish) air, even if they don't have leaves. The plant must have active root tips to adsorb water. Most water adsorption occurs via extensions of the wall of individual epidermal cells a few millimeters behind the root tip. Lose these in winter and they may not get replaced before the tree desiccates.

It is all very simple.
 

Mike Corazzi

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In hotter climes, like yours @Mike Corazzi, it may be nearly impossible to meet these requirements in summer; late-winter/early-spring may well be your only choice. Indeed, you do want to wait until buds begin to swell as this is evidence of root activity. Even in dormancy, trees loose moisture to dry(-ish) air, even if they don't have leaves. The plant must have active root tips to adsorb water. Most water adsorption occurs via extensions of the wall of individual epidermal cells a few millimeters behind the root tip. Lose these in winter and they may not get replaced before the tree desiccates.

It is all very simple.

Ah HAH!

Now it makes sense. That's what I was kinda afraid of. AND.... it conforms to what the guy who gives local bonsai classes does.
Being that my summers....HAW... are 95+ from possibly April :oops: to lotsa times.... October o_O it was making me nervous to think of attacking the pines after October (or certainly August)
Soooo...... being that...MY... place won't cooperate... then would the repot be best right about near the end of the candle forming stage? Or even 3/4 through with the candles?

Or should I just move? :D:D:p:p:D:Do_O
 

River's Edge

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Of course, you must know that I disagree.

All trees change their growth mode(s) shortly after the summer solstice. Prior, there is a brief burst of root growth about the time buds begin to swell, but after that most carbohydrates are consumed making new tissues above ground. Shortly after the passage of the longest daylight day, this slows and more carbohydrate and auxin are available to drive root growth. By this time every species has a canopy of new, highly productive foliage.

One should avoid root work anytime stem extension is occurring as a good supply of water is required (extension occurs by water filling cellular vacuoles, enlarging them before the cell walls are fixed). Some angiosperms, such as maples, and some conifers will produce new stem extensions after the solstice. These times are not conducive to root work, pre/post summer solstice.

No tree grows when temperatures are outside the range of 40F/5C to 95F/35C. The rate of growth increases with temperature above 40F/5C attaining a maximum near, but definitely less than 95F/35C. This is a consequence of the rate of photosynthesis remaining fixed at the same level when it is hotter than 95F/35C, whereas metabolic reactions 'unfixing carbon continue to increase with temperature. Maximum root growth rates peak at much lower temperatures around 70F/25C because they must be covered with a film of water to remain moist (oxygen solubility in water decreases with increasing temperature, whereas the rate at which oxygen molecules move through water increases).

The significance of all this is that trees will, in principle, repair root damage much faster in summer than spring because it is warmer. Of course this isn't the case if daytime temperatures are above 95F/35C for most of those hours, it is not a good time for root work Likewise, it is not a particularly good time for root work if one cannot also keep root zone temperatures in the neighborhood of 70F/25C (get an inexpensive meat thermometer probe and stick it in the pot). In cooler climates where these upper limits are not much of a problem, summer repotting definitely can be better than repotting in spring. The spring repotting window is only a few short weeks long, whereas it is months long after the summer solstice.

In hotter climes, like yours @Mike Corazzi, it may be nearly impossible to meet these requirements in summer; late-winter/early-spring may well be your only choice. Indeed, you do want to wait until buds begin to swell as this is evidence of root activity. Even in dormancy, trees loose moisture to dry(-ish) air, even if they don't have leaves. The plant must have active root tips to adsorb water. Most water adsorption occurs via extensions of the wall of individual epidermal cells a few millimeters behind the root tip. Lose these in winter and they may not get replaced before the tree desiccates.

It is all very simple.
The disagreement is noted and expected! By the time one takes into account hot times, cold times, watering issues, not too mention developmental plans and timing for refinement techniques, the approach i prefer is as i stated!
And i am comfortable with you telling someone to do it differently if their circumstances will meet all your requirements!
Also my approach is shared by numerous professionals i have trained with over the years.
Actually you said as much in the last sentence. " late winter/early spring may well be your only choice." And you wisely added "indeed you do want to wait until buds begin to swell as this is evidence of root activity"
It is not unusual to parse facts to suit ones argument and end up circling around to common ground.
Most importantly if your trees are happy then i am happy;)
 

bonhe

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This is very interesting subject, indeed.!
For me, almost all my transplant for conifers is at the winter while the deciduous in the end of winter when the vegetative buds start swelling up. I don't repot in other seasons. The reason of transplanting time difference between conifers and deciduous is that the conifers still have needles, and deciduous has no leaves at that time, of course! ;)
Thụ Thoại
 

0soyoung

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It is not unusual to parse facts to suit ones argument and end up circling around to common ground.
IMHO, it beats the "I've always done it that way argument" which is all that backs up most claims that spring is the best time'.

As long as your trees are happy, I'm happy for you too. And I am happy to see what you've created.

If one just wants to follow the recipe and have a beer, fine. I am peculiar because I want to know why and am obnoxious/overbearing about sharing what I think I've learned. A long time ago @Vance Wood claimed that mugo are best repotted in summer. Almost a lifetime ago now. People were fiddling with phytohormones and their effects over 50 years ago. Bonsai is just now getting the notion of auxin and what it does.
 
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0soyoung

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This is very interesting subject, indeed.!
For me, almost all my transplant for conifers is at the winter while the deciduous in the end of winter when the vegetative buds start swelling up. I don't repot in other seasons. The reason of transplanting time difference between conifers and deciduous is that the conifers still have needles, and deciduous has no leaves at that time, of course! ;)
Thụ Thoại
I am curious if you've ever tried anything different than this routine.
 

River's Edge

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This is very interesting subject, indeed.!
For me, almost all my transplant for conifers is at the winter while the deciduous in the end of winter when the vegetative buds start swelling up. I don't repot in other seasons. The reason of transplanting time difference between conifers and deciduous is that the conifers still have needles, and deciduous has no leaves at that time, of course! ;)
Thụ Thoại
I understand that approach given your location and temperatures throughout the year! Not possible for me as it gets a bit too cool mid winter! Actually wish i could, it certainly would make repotting season easier if i felt comfortable with a longer time frame. Perhaps i need another greenhouse!
 

bonhe

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I am curious if you've ever tried anything different than this routine.
Yes, I have. With tropical specimens, I transplant them in late Spring.

However, I will tell you the sad story. I acquired a large beautiful Montezuma cypress prebonsai about 6 years ago. When I got it, it was having the new leaves coming out. As you may already know, the best time to view Montezuma cypress bonsai is in early Spring when the new leaves are coming out. I love to watch it in backlighting with a dark background! So beautiful! Anyway, the tree had a severe rootbound. I was in rush to transplant it to the bonsai pot in spite of knowing the risk! I was too confident!!! After transplanting, the tree never woke up again! I felt very sad and angry for my stupidity! That mistake will never happen again!
Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

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I understand that approach given your location and temperatures throughout the year! Not possible for me as it gets a bit too cool mid winter! Actually wish i could, it certainly would make repotting season easier if i felt comfortable with a longer time frame. Perhaps i need another greenhouse!
I agree with you.
Thụ Thoại
 

0soyoung

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Yes, I have. With tropical specimens, I transplant them in late Spring.[/quote]
Pros in Florida repot tropicals in August. They do have a bit more humidity than you do that time of year.
However, I will tell you the sad story. I acquired a large beautiful Montezuma cypress prebonsai about 6 years ago. When I got it, it was having the new leaves coming out. As you may already know, the best time to view Montezuma cypress bonsai is in early Spring when the new leaves are coming out. I love to watch it in backlighting with a dark background! So beautiful! Anyway, the tree had a severe rootbound. I was in rush to transplant it to the bonsai pot in spite of knowing the risk! I was too confident!!! After transplanting, the tree never woke up again! I felt very sad and angry for my stupidity! That mistake will never happen again!
Thụ Thoại
This is indeed a very sad story.
 

Anthony

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Aha,

so @0soyoung , it made sense to wait for our night time temperatures to
return to the low 70's - Thanks.
Last week of November until a week or so ago, all our nights were around
64 to 68 deg,F - very odd.
From just before 10 p.m to 8 a.m
Good Day
Anthony
 

hemmy

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Yes, I have. With tropical specimens, I transplant them in late Spring.
About when is that for you and is it based on average nighttime low temps? I am west of you on the coast, our average lows are at 50F in April. But I have always waited until July when our nighttime lows are closest to 60F. Maybe I can move it up a month and start in May.
 

River's Edge

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This is very interesting subject, indeed.!
For me, almost all my transplant for conifers is at the winter while the deciduous in the end of winter when the vegetative buds start swelling up. I don't repot in other seasons. The reason of transplanting time difference between conifers and deciduous is that the conifers still have needles, and deciduous has no leaves at that time, of course! ;)
Thụ Thoại
This makes all sorts of sense to me and highlights the variation of timing. Temperature consideration for root activity is an important factor, but only one factor. Recovery is also widely affected by moisture in the substrate and humidity in the air. So i find the best time is when these factors can come together in ones location for the species one is working with. Your winter is basically my early spring, and your end of winter is the beginning of my summer when we consider the average temperatures. The vast majority of my trees are outdoors all the time and humidity is an important consideration. Our late winters and early springs are the best combination of desireable temperature range and natural precipitation, humidity. Our summers tend to be hotter and drier with long periods of no precipitation. I try to finish up my conifers by the end of April and deciduous by the end of May.
if i find it necessary to work outside of those boundaries i provide extra aftercare and usually take extra care with specialized or modified repotting techniques.
 

bonhe

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About when is that for you and is it based on average nighttime low temps? I am west of you on the coast, our average lows are at 50F in April. But I have always waited until July when our nighttime lows are closest to 60F. Maybe I can move it up a month and start in May.
As you already know, your area is about 10 degrees warmer than mine in winter and 10 degrees cooler than mine in summer.. In my opinion and through out my observation, your area is an excellent to raise the tropical plants.
I am using night temperature average to plan for tree work in the winter and day temperature average in the summer. The reason is that in the winter, I care about low temperature which could affect to the trees and in the summer, I care about hot temperature ( as Osoyoung let us know the maximum or minimum temperatures that could affect the tree). I hope it makes sense. Thụ Thoại
 

bonhe

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Te

This makes all sorts of sense to me and highlights the variation of timing. Temperature consideration for root activity is an important factor, but only one factor. Recovery is also widely affected by moisture in the substrate and humidity in the air. So i find the best time is when these factors can come together in ones location for the species one is working with. Your winter is basically my early spring, and your end of winter is the beginning of my summer when we consider the average temperatures. The vast majority of my trees are outdoors all the time and humidity is an important consideration. Our late winters and early springs are the best combination of desireable temperature range and natural precipitation, humidity. Our summers tend to be hotter and drier with long periods of no precipitation. I try to finish up my conifers by the end of April and deciduous by the end of May.
if i find it necessary to work outside of those boundaries i provide extra aftercare and usually take extra care with specialized or modified repotting techniques.
Thanks for ìnformation.
So your area has very short growing period, doesn’t it?
Thụ Thoại
 

River's Edge

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Thanks for ìnformation.
So your area has very short growing period, doesn’t it?
Thụ Thoại
Shorter than most of California, but not as short as many areas this far north , we just have a more temperate climate with less variation in the high and lows. Affected by the proximity to the ocean on My JBP are active now and will remain active through to the end of October. Google ( for Vancouver BC ) says our average frost free growing season is 222 days Beginning March 28 and ending November 5th. My site is slightly warmer on average with a bit less rain throughout the year.
 
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