Agriff

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I was reading through this thread here about wiring, and it encouraged a debate about clip and grow. I think it would be worthwhile to highlight some of the merits of this bonsai philosophy.

Pro-wire folks regard clip and grow as one useful tool in their toolbox, but I'm intrigued by this quote by @Owen Reich: "Kyuzo Murata didn’t wire much at all, but styling took likely 3x as long. I happen to be an advocate for not using wire for some species and styles, given that sometimes the trees I like only have a handful of small branches. I can tell if a tree has been made fast or slow. The slow grown ones are my favorites".

Other folks who eschew wiring as a method and rely soley on clip and grow tend to attract controversy, like Nigel Saunders. But people in this camp clearly put a lot of faith in this slower and (what they would consider to be) more patient approach to bonsai, and seem to gravitate toward one another. I took a beginner's bonsai class taught by a clip and grow advocate at my Bonsai society last weekend, for example, and he had a youtube channel that got regular feedback from Nigel despite the channel only having about 800 subscribers.

Now I'm not trying to rehash any heated arguments here, but I think it would be cool to see some examples of what clip and grow can get you over time. I'd like to see the fruits of this patience, and try to better understand what can be gained by allowing trees to style themselves. So if you have any pics of clipped and grown trees that you really like, post them here!
 

BobbyLane

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clip n grow is just another method to add to your arsenal of developing a deciduous tree. just because a handful of people dont like the look of Nigel saunders trees doesnt mean clip grow is inadequate. its been used for years the world over and isnt going anywhere.
you should only need to fully wire a deciduous tree once or twice in its life time. from there on it is CLIP AND GROW!
some folks dont use wire at all, you can put movement into trees simply with directional pruning. not familiar with directional pruning? its essentially another name for clip n grow!
 

Agriff

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clip n grow is just another method to add to your arsenal of developing a deciduous tree. just because a handful of people dont like the look of Nigel saunders trees doesnt mean clip grow is inadequate. its been used for years the world over and isnt going anywhere.
I think you misunderstood my intention behind this post! I am not trying to speak negatively about clip and grow- quite the opposite: I was hoping for a thread where we can highlight the beauty of what clip and grow can do.
 

BobbyLane

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I think you misunderstood my intention behind this post! I am not trying to speak negatively about clip and grow- quite the opposite: I was hoping for a thread where we can highlight the beauty of what clip and grow can do.
both Colin lewis and Graham potter here talking about developing trees with pruning (clip n grow) and the benefits of not using much wire
 

BobbyLane

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One of Potters elms that he's never used wire on:
P1120207.jpg
"I am often asked what is my favourite bonsai. As always I can’t offer a straight answer. We move more than two thousand bonsai a year here and I love the day new trees arrive. I also love the day they leave because KB got paid. However I am not as mercenary as that, I have a collection of bonsai and raw material I have kept to myself now and some of those trees have been with me for nearly 25 years.

I do not have a favourite species of tree to work on. Tree species all have unique characteristics and many change throughout the year making them very interesting to work with at different times. So my favourite bonsai? A very good one that looks it’s best and has been developed to bring out it’s unique character. The other thing I love (being a Brit’) is an underdog. Most of my bonsai journey has been about making ugly trees into pretty ones. Some trees I see are beyond hope but others just need a caring hand and a skilled eye to reveal their inner beauty.

When you keep bonsai trees you have to come to terms with the fact that not everything can look it’s best all the time. Many folk believe it’s possible to have a collection of bonsai that look like pictures lifted from magazines, IT”S NOT. Bonsai need to be allowed to grow and as such most cannot be perfectly manicured all year around. However it should be possible to have a tree come to perfection at least once a year or perhaps every couple of years.

So my favourite bonsai tree changes throughout the year. Even with 3000 trees in the garden there are rarely more than two that are peaking at any one time. At this time of year I do have one very special bonsai that helps reinforce my conviction about what I am doing and, just for good measure the tree is a bit of an underdog too.

I bought this Chinese elm about 15 years ago from another bonsai nursery. It was a typical Chinese tree with balls of foliage on the end of each branch. However underneath I could see something very special. This elm lives outside all year around. I have to re-pot every year and about every 5 years it has to be cut back very hard into old wood and re-twigged. The bark is stunning now and the tree has never been wired. In February every year it drops it’s leaves and for about 3 weeks is stunning. This is, to me, the epitome of an old English woodland tree and today it IS my favourite bonsai." -G Potter

see blog post for more detailed images of this elm
 

PA_Penjing

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I love the look of clip and grow because I like angular trees. Granted clip and grow can be used to make subtle flowing soft lines as well. But wire won't get you 90 degree bends, or at least I don't have the balls to try it. I have books and photos full of clip and grow trees. I'll try to remember to add some pics tonight when I get home
 

BobbyLane

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dont want to spam up the thread so ill just post a link to my old Chinese elm that ive barely used any wire on

im currently developing a Big zelkova thats only had its primary structure positioned, the rest will mostly be clip n grow and pruning for direction.
Colin lewis has a book on developing deciduous trees mainly with clip n grow, i cant remember the name of it, you'll have to look it up. its a good read.

btw, Walters hedge pruning method is essentially another form of clip and grow!
 

Mikecheck123

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I was reading through this thread here about wiring, and it encouraged a debate about clip and grow. I think it would be worthwhile to highlight some of the merits of this bonsai philosophy.

Pro-wire folks regard clip and grow as one useful tool in their toolbox, but I'm intrigued by this quote by @Owen Reich: "Kyuzo Murata didn’t wire much at all, but styling took likely 3x as long. I happen to be an advocate for not using wire for some species and styles, given that sometimes the trees I like only have a handful of small branches. I can tell if a tree has been made fast or slow. The slow grown ones are my favorites".

Other folks who eschew wiring as a method and rely soley on clip and grow tend to attract controversy, like Nigel Saunders. But people in this camp clearly put a lot of faith in this slower and (what they would consider to be) more patient approach to bonsai, and seem to gravitate toward one another. I took a beginner's bonsai class taught by a clip and grow advocate at my Bonsai society last weekend, for example, and he had a youtube channel that got regular feedback from Nigel despite the channel only having about 800 subscribers.

Now I'm not trying to rehash any heated arguments here, but I think it would be cool to see some examples of what clip and grow can get you over time. I'd like to see the fruits of this patience, and try to better understand what can be gained by allowing trees to style themselves. So if you have any pics of clipped and grown trees that you really like, post them here!
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
 

Forsoothe!

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While it's possible to never use wire, that's just putting yourself at a disadvantage, unnecessarily. Does it count as not using wire if you use guy wires? If you never use wire you forfeit the ability to create some types of trees, like cascade and literati. Somebody out there will correct me on that and show a shitty wannabe of those forms, but for the most part bonsai is not the default form of any species I know of, and the really dramatic show-stoppers of any style are examples of perfection of what we imagine it to be. Almost every specie has a growth habit that has to be overcome, forcefully. When young they grow more upright with growing tips pointed at the sun. They grow dense and bushy with little or no space between branches. A tree that looks young doesn't evoke the kind of reaction we want. A tree that doesn't have space for the birdies to fly through the branches doesn't evoke the kind of reaction we want. We train trees to be different from their natural form. And most of us welcome every trick in the book.

Here's a couple that have never had wire of them...
Hu 2019 AABS show.JPG
Huisache has some nasty needle sharp spines, so guy wires only.
Bo 060921 deflowered.JPG
Dwarf Spiny Black Olive also has nasty needle sharp spines, so guy wires only.
 
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While it's possible to never use wire, that's just putting yourself at a disadvantage, unnecessarily.
Nailed it. That aside, I love this thread because it's exploring different approaches and different styles to different approaches. For me, adhering to any type dogma is foolish. But to look for opportunities and to leverage shared knowledge and find new possibilities is divine. (Apologies for hacking that metaphor!) Keep the conversation going!
 

amcoffeegirl

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I was afraid to wire my ficus in the early years of my journey. I will say that i learned a lot from that experience. Really learned the growth habits of the species. I leaned a lot about what not to do but that still counts. I am still not great at wiring but each time is a lesson.
I don’t consider wiring a short cut to faster results compared to clip and grow.
it is easier to place a branch with wire than to regrow it. Lol
 

Owen Reich

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I was reading through this thread here about wiring, and it encouraged a debate about clip and grow. I think it would be worthwhile to highlight some of the merits of this bonsai philosophy.

Pro-wire folks regard clip and grow as one useful tool in their toolbox, but I'm intrigued by this quote by @Owen Reich: "Kyuzo Murata didn’t wire much at all, but styling took likely 3x as long. I happen to be an advocate for not using wire for some species and styles, given that sometimes the trees I like only have a handful of small branches. I can tell if a tree has been made fast or slow. The slow grown ones are my favorites".

Other folks who eschew wiring as a method and rely soley on clip and grow tend to attract controversy, like Nigel Saunders. But people in this camp clearly put a lot of faith in this slower and (what they would consider to be) more patient approach to bonsai, and seem to gravitate toward one another. I took a beginner's bonsai class taught by a clip and grow advocate at my Bonsai society last weekend, for example, and he had a youtube channel that got regular feedback from Nigel despite the channel only having about 800 subscribers.

Now I'm not trying to rehash any heated arguments here, but I think it would be cool to see some examples of what clip and grow can get you over time. I'd like to see the fruits of this patience, and try to better understand what can be gained by allowing trees to style themselves. So if you have any pics of clipped and grown trees that you really like, post them here!
You can make bonsai a variety of ways, and an aluminum and annealed copper wiring (espcially every single tiny shoot) is relatively new in the grand scheme of things. Someone older than me will know the details about when wiring became popular and timing of introduction of detail wiring. I’m noting the timeframe bonsai have been around and when wiring started becoming the norm. Bonsai quality control went way up and moving a branch took minutes instead of years with rocks tied to strings. Horticultural techniques improved drastically too with the increased demand for better trees too, so wiring and innovation in healthcare became the norm as well. I’ll reiterate the word recently. Apprenticeship on level most know to be the norm wasn’t always the case.

What was sacrificed with detail wiring in my opinion was the soul in many bonsais’ designs. When precision and super detail overtook the appreciation of inherent beauty due to planned or left imperfections, something changed. A bonsai can be wired without it looking heavily wired so there are subtle styling methods too, which I like to use when i can. Much of the material I’ve wired with and for people hadn’t been wired off and on for much of it’s life and they are much harder to style. We in America would be smart to support field growers that start making the trees from cutting stage on. Makes bonsai a lot easier : ).

As someone who studied afine tuning and also appreciates the less contrived format of pre-classical bonsai, I know it is possible to use techniques from a variety of schools of bonsai. Every branch is different and interacts with it‘s surroundings. Clip and grow is used on every bonsai between wirings, and often the finishing of tertiary - quarternary branching of more refined trees.

Some people use clip and grow styling and the results are phenomenal; amazing sometimes what people come up with with no instruction and just try stuff. Clip and Grow only can work quite well if you know what you‘re doing. Murata may have used wire on some trees, but I don’t know. I do not claim to know how to make amazing clip and grow made bonsai, and should try it.
 

sorce

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Thing about people whining about wire is....

In the end, everyone clips and grows, but we don't need no stinking wire!

ACG.
20210707_093833.jpg

I think, if you don't need more patience to practice clip and grow, you definitely need a more intimate relationship with the tree.

Sorce
 

Michael P

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This tread has made me bold enough to speak heresy:

I hate wire.

I hate putting it on. Annealed copper wire blisters my fingers, and you can't do it wearing gloves. I hate the way trees look with wire on them. I hate watching the stuff every day to prevent it from biting in and scarring branches. I hate when I forget for a few days and it disfigures a branch anyway. I hate taking the stuff off. I hate the waste of a semi-precious metal, copper.

There. Burn me at the digital stake if you wish.
 
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