Coast Redwood ... again!

Newbietoredwood

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Last year you all helped me with a coast redwood query. Well, as it turns out, that redwood is in fact a bald cypress! Over-wintered successfully and busting growth all over.
So, I am awaiting delivery of a young coast redwood of 60 cm height. When it arrives, can I reduce the height (like a dawn redwood) to encourage trunk thickening and keep it to my desired height? I'm in the U.K. equivalent zone 7-9. Thanks in advance. Gwen.
 

Cdd123

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Congratulations on the new tree. I am not a redwood expert, and have never tried a substantial trunk chop on my coast redwood. However, my understanding is that the tree would handle this very well. I have cut multiple branches and the tree responded great. They bud constantly and are always pushing new growth.
With all this being said, if you want to thicken the trunk I would let it grow a while before considering a major chop. They thicken pretty quick if you simply let them do their thing.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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So, I am awaiting delivery of a young coast redwood of 60 cm height. When it arrives, can I reduce the height (like a dawn redwood) to encourage trunk thickening and keep it to my desired height? I'm in the U.K. equivalent zone 7-9. Thanks in advance. Gwen.
Yes you can.

Choose an appropriate spot based upon your design goals, chop and wire up a new apex. As you get closer to final design chop you may consider a bark graft to cover the scar.

cheers
DSD sends
 

Newbietoredwood

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My young coast redwood has arrived. I have chosen a new leader to wire up. Is it worth trying to root the top of the tree that I cut off? The portion to be removed has not lignified yet and is still dark green. Waste not - want not. 🤣 It doesn't matter if it fails. The tree is pencil thin and heading to the stars but I am sure with sunshine and water it will soon start to fatten. Thanks again for your help. There is not a lot of experience of coast redwoods as bonsai over her in UK.
 

RKatzin

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I have had very good success rooting cuttings from Coast Redwoods as well as Dawn Redwood. It's definitely a long term project. They will also produce basal sprouts, new shoots from the base of the tree, and these can be removed and grown.
 

ChefB

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Let it run and don’t chop it until it’s 2/3 of your desired trunk thickness. You could bend the part of the trunk you’re going to chop away from the main leader for now to allow light to reach the future tree.
 

rockm

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My young coast redwood has arrived. I have chosen a new leader to wire up. Is it worth trying to root the top of the tree that I cut off? The portion to be removed has not lignified yet and is still dark green. Waste not - want not. 🤣 It doesn't matter if it fails. The tree is pencil thin and heading to the stars but I am sure with sunshine and water it will soon start to fatten. Thanks again for your help. There is not a lot of experience of coast redwoods as bonsai over her in UK.
Why in the hell would you cut the top out of a sapling? You want all the growth you can get to fatten up the trunk. Cutting the top out of it (redwoods are apically dominant) will slow growth down, slowing down increasing the size of the trunk.

Let it alone. Let it grow. The worst mistake beginners make is to indulge in urges to "do something" to their trees, when the best path is just to let it grow. If it's pencil thin, you have at least two to three years before the trunk is worth making into a bonsai. Five to 10 is more like it for a decent base for a redwood bonsai.
 

Newbietoredwood

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My young coast redwood has arrived. I have chosen a new leader to wire up. Is it worth trying to root the top of the tree that I cut off? The portion to be removed has not lignified yet and is still dark green. Waste not - want not. 🤣 It doesn't matter if it fails. The tree is pencil thin and heading to the stars but I am sure with sunshine and water it will soon start to fatten. Thanks again for your help. There is not a lot of experience of coast redwoods as bonsai over her in UK.
Why in the hell would you cut the top out of a sapling? You want all the growth you can get to fatten up the trunk. Cutting the top out of it (redwoods are apically dominant) will slow growth down, slowing down increasing the size of the trunk.

Let it alone. Let it grow. The worst mistake beginners make is to indulge in urges to "do something" to their trees, when the best path is just to let it grow. If it's pencil thin, you have at least two to three years before the trunk is worth making into a bonsai. Five to 10 is more like it for a decent base for a redwood bonsai.
Thanks for your wise words. 👍
 

Newbietoredwood

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Let it run and don’t chop it until it’s 2/3 of your desired trunk thickness. You could bend the part of the trunk you’re going to chop away from the main leader for now to allow light to reach the future tree.
Thanks, that's a good idea!
 

dbonsaiw

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Let it alone. Let it grow. The worst mistake beginners make is to indulge in urges to "do something" to their trees, when the best path is just to let it grow. If it's pencil thin, you have at least two to three years before the trunk is worth making into a bonsai. Five to 10 is more like it for a decent base for a redwood bonsai.
I think that as beginners we have this "understanding" that bonsai takes a long time to develop, but when actually dealing with the trees we tend to lose focus of this. Like little kids in the backseat of the car "are we there yet" - "no, we just pulled out of the driveway". Pencil thin material is the equivalent of pulling out of the driveway. We are not there yet, not even close. Most of what could have one day been decent material was destroyed by me because of "are we there yet".

This is where our choices of material really make a difference. Cost is a legit issue, but the notion that one needs to start from seed/seedling in order for the bonsai to truly be considered "my creation" is just silly. If we start with better, more mature material, we still have a very long time to make the tree "my creation". The alternative is take the time to grow out the seedling into this better material, and that will take years.

One of the seedlings I actually did not destroy is my dawn redwood. It was less than a foot tall and pencil thin last year. I got it into a large nursery pot (I know very large pots not the best idea) and its now about 5 feet tall and maybe 3/4 inch thick. In fact, I haven't cut or pruned anything on this tree yet and frankly don't intend to just yet. I want the trunk to be at least 3 inches thick, so I will simply be watering and fertilizing this tree for the next number of years.
 

Newbietoredwood

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I have had very good success rooting cuttings from Coast Redwoods as well as Dawn Redwood. It's definitely a long term project. They will also produce basal sprouts, new shoots from the base of the tree, and these can be removed and grown.
Thanks for your help. I too have good results with Dawn Redwood. I just wondered if the same might be expected from Coast. Now that I have a Coast, I can tell how much more coarse the foliage feels.
 

Newbietoredwood

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I think that as beginners we have this "understanding" that bonsai takes a long time to develop, but when actually dealing with the trees we tend to lose focus of this. Like little kids in the backseat of the car "are we there yet" - "no, we just pulled out of the driveway". Pencil thin material is the equivalent of pulling out of the driveway. We are not there yet, not even close. Most of what could have one day been decent material was destroyed by me because of "are we there yet".

This is where our choices of material really make a difference. Cost is a legit issue, but the notion that one needs to start from seed/seedling in order for the bonsai to truly be considered "my creation" is just silly. If we start with better, more mature material, we still have a very long time to make the tree "my creation". The alternative is take the time to grow out the seedling into this better material, and that will take years.

One of the seedlings I actually did not destroy is my dawn redwood. It was less than a foot tall and pencil thin last year. I got it into a large nursery pot (I know very large pots not the best idea) and its now about 5 feet tall and maybe 3/4 inch thick. In fact, I haven't cut or pruned anything on this tree yet and frankly don't intend to just yet. I want the trunk to be at least 3 inches thick, so I will simply be watering and fertilizing this tree for the next number of years.
Lovely reply! Unfortunately, in terms of your analogy, at 75 and having been into bonsai for more than 50 years, I am not only 'out of the driveway' ... I'm pulling over to replenish the gas. 😳 Best wishes.
 

rockm

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I know my initial response was harsh, but it was a warning that you're needlessly complicating your job if you see only opportunities to get additional trees from your initial one. It's shortsighted.

FWIW, here's one of the premier sites in the U.S. that sources Coast redwood material. It's collected stock, dug from the California coast. Note the pictures of starter stock...Redwood are grown as bonsai to resemble their massive relatives. There is no other reason to have one. not saying your seedling is anything like the collected trees, but those trees give you an idea of the sizes of trunks that are worked here in the states.

Your seedling is five to ten years out from being in the vicinity to become a decent bonsai. Anything impeding the top growth of the seedling at this point will add years to your project. At 75, can you afford to do that?
 

dbonsaiw

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Lovely reply! Unfortunately, in terms of your analogy, at 75 and having been into bonsai for more than 50 years, I am not only 'out of the driveway' ... I'm pulling over to replenish the gas. 😳 Best wishes.
LOL, didn't mean to offend (and definitely didn't know your experience level). My mistakes have been caused by what I state above and I see many a newb state "I will cut the trunk to fatten it" which makes no sense. Was only trying to lower the learning curve for someone I thought was a fellow newb. My bad.
 

Newbietoredwood

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I know my initial response was harsh, but it was a warning that you're needlessly complicating your job if you see only opportunities to get additional trees from your initial one. It's shortsighted.

FWIW, here's one of the premier sites in the U.S. that sources Coast redwood material. It's collected stock, dug from the California coast. Note the pictures of starter stock...Redwood are grown as bonsai to resemble their massive relatives. There is no other reason to have one. not saying your seedling is anything like the collected trees, but those trees give you an idea of the sizes of trunks that are worked here in the states.

Your seedling is five to ten years out from being in the vicinity to become a decent bonsai. Anything impeding the top growth of the seedling at this point will add years to your project. At 75, can you afford to do that?
I understand completely. Not harsh at all! I also understand that because the coast is a tree of California, you have much better knowledge and access to material at all stages of development. If only you were able to export, you would have a ready made market! Albeit a fairly small one as I think interest here is limited. Dawn redwood (I know totally different animal) are readily available here but interest in them as bonsai is still quite limited.
I have no great expectations for my coast. Just to grow it as well as I can and keep it alive for my remaining lifetime is all I ask. And I thank you sincerely for your interest.
I forgot ... I am not interested in 'making more trees'. The gardener in me can't just throw things away. 🤣
 

rockm

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I understand completely. Not harsh at all! I also understand that because the coast is a tree of California, you have much better knowledge and access to material at all stages of development. If only you were able to export, you would have a ready made market! Albeit a fairly small one as I think interest here is limited. Dawn redwood (I know totally different animal) are readily available here but interest in them as bonsai is still quite limited.
I have no great expectations for my coast. Just to grow it as well as I can and keep it alive for my remaining lifetime is all I ask. And I thank you sincerely for your interest.
I forgot ... I am not interested in 'making more trees'. The gardener in me can't just throw things away. 🤣
Don't know if you know about Dan Barton (UK bonsaiist/author) who has been growing Sequoia as bonsai for a very long time. He's had the one pictured in this article since 1977. It was in his "The Bonsai Book" published in 1994. The article is from 2013. A more recent post on his website says it's no longer in his collection (possible coded message than it has passed on). He grew it from a balled and burlapped tree he got at a nursery over there if I remember. Anyway, point is that Sequoia tends to be a bit more cold hardy than coast redwood, which can be an issue if you're winter temps drop below 25 F (-3 C) more than two or three times a year. Sequoia also seems to be pretty available in a number of U.K. nurseries from a quick search.
 

BobbyLane

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Here's a cool giant Redwood, grown by Smithy in the UK from seed over 20 years. He used to post on here and IBC a long time ago. This is a recent pic
315937680_10226302875832193_2054706302155233038_n.jpg
 

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Emanon

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Why in the hell would you cut the top out of a sapling? You want all the growth you can get to fatten up the trunk. Cutting the top out of it (redwoods are apically dominant) will slow growth down, slowing down increasing the size of the trunk.

Let it alone. Let it grow. The worst mistake beginners make is to indulge in urges to "do something" to their trees, when the best path is just to let it grow. If it's pencil thin, you have at least two to three years before the trunk is worth making into a bonsai. Five to 10 is more like it for a decent base for a redwood bonsai.
For me personally I never know what to do with species that are both apically dominant and that do not backbud. I'm thinking in particular of Monterey cypress. I do not want to lose bottom branches and I do not want to lose inner growth... so I'm always tempted to cut the top off and prune back branches as I grow them out.

Coast redwoods are in the same Linnaean (system of classification) family "Cupressaceae", so intuitively the trees (Monterey cypress and coast redwood) seem related. Plus when you see pictures of very old coast redwoods, they have all lost their bottom branches and, of course, if you stand underneath the also related giant sequoia and look up... well one is instantly taken aback by how bare the inner parts of the branches are (see pictures for examples). So I think to a beginner like me ... it's not so much the lack of patience but more so the fear that our young pre-bonsai will start down the path toward developing what I call it the "ugly eucalyptus" growth habit. Here in Southern California we're surrounded by ugly eucalyptus trees that are characterized by long bare trunks with a few branches at the very top that themselves are long and bare except for foliage at the very end. I attached a picture below (last picture) of a young eucalyptus tree for reference -- emphasis on young i.e. this growth pattern happens quickly with these trees. This is the image I see in my nightmares and the image I have in my head when I cut the apex of the trees I'm trying to grow out. I of course realize that coast redwoods backbud VERY WELL. But I really think it is this fear (and not a lack of patience) that drives beginners like me to chop the top off of apically dominant species that grow fast.

Well on the topic, what is the best plan of action for growing out trees that are apically dominant and that do not readily backbud?
 

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