Coast Redwood ... again!

[Newbietoredwood]

Don't know if you know about Dan Barton (UK bonsaiist/author) who has been growing Sequoia as bonsai for a very long time. He's had the one pictured in this article since 1977. It was in his "The Bonsai Book" published in 1994. The article is from 2013. A more recent post on his website says it's no longer in his collection (possible coded message than it has passed on). He grew it from a balled and burlapped tree he got at a nursery over there if I remember. Anyway, point is that Sequoia tends to be a bit more cold hardy than coast redwood, which can be an issue if you're winter temps drop below 25 F (-3 C) more than two or three times a year. Sequoia also seems to be pretty available in a number of U.K. nurseries from a quick search.

Redwoods, Wellingtonia and Swamp Cypress as Bonsai

If you are fascinated by trees then you cannot but love the Cupressaceae family of which belong the Redwoods, Wellingtonia and the Swamp Cypress and you should consider them a challenge to bonsai.…

swindon-bonsai.co.uk

Dan is a legend in UK bonsai. I have his book with the progression of the sequoia. Dan and his wife Cecelia are both expert potters and regularly have a sales table at my local bonsai club.
On the subject of temperature, we have just survived a winter with uncommon cold (night temperature of -9C once or twice). This, following excess heat the previous summer has lead to some regrettable tree losses.
I am seriously thinking of installing a small greenhouse before next winter in which I can exert some control over temperature.

 

[Newbietoredwood]

For me personally I never know what to do with species that are both apically dominant and that do not backbud. I'm thinking in particular of Monterey cypress. I do not want to lose bottom branches and I do not want to lose inner growth... so I'm always tempted to cut the top off and prune back branches as I grow them out.

Coast redwoods are in the same Linnaean (system of classification) family "Cupressaceae", so intuitively the trees (Monterey cypress and coast redwood) seem related. Plus when you see pictures of very old coast redwoods, they have all lost their bottom branches and, of course, if you stand underneath the also related giant sequoia and look up... well one is instantly taken aback by how bare the inner parts of the branches are (see pictures for examples). So I think to a beginner like me ... it's not so much the lack of patience but more so the fear that our young pre-bonsai will start down the path toward developing what I call it the "ugly eucalyptus" growth habit. Here in Southern California we're surrounded by ugly eucalyptus trees that are characterized by long bare trunks with a few branches at the very top that themselves are long and bare except for foliage at the very end. I attached a picture below (last picture) of a young eucalyptus tree for reference -- emphasis on young i.e. this growth pattern happens quickly with these trees. This is the image I see in my nightmares and the image I have in my head when I cut the apex of the trees I'm trying to grow out. I of course realize that coast redwoods backbud VERY WELL. But I really think it is this fear (and not a lack of patience) that drives beginners like me to chop the top off of apically dominant species that grow fast.

Well on the topic, what is the best plan of action for growing out trees that are apically dominant and that do not readily backbud?

Totally agree about the trunk chopping! A point well made.

 

[rockm]

For me personally I never know what to do with species that are both apically dominant and that do not backbud. I'm thinking in particular of Monterey cypress. I do not want to lose bottom branches and I do not want to lose inner growth... so I'm always tempted to cut the top off and prune back branches as I grow them out.

Coast redwoods are in the same Linnaean (system of classification) family "Cupressaceae", so intuitively the trees (Monterey cypress and coast redwood) seem related. Plus when you see pictures of very old coast redwoods, they have all lost their bottom branches and, of course, if you stand underneath the also related giant sequoia and look up... well one is instantly taken aback by how bare the inner parts of the branches are (see pictures for examples). So I think to a beginner like me ... it's not so much the lack of patience but more so the fear that our young pre-bonsai will start down the path toward developing what I call it the "ugly eucalyptus" growth habit. Here in Southern California we're surrounded by ugly eucalyptus trees that are characterized by long bare trunks with a few branches at the very top that themselves are long and bare except for foliage at the very end. I attached a picture below (last picture) of a young eucalyptus tree for reference -- emphasis on young i.e. this growth pattern happens quickly with these trees. This is the image I see in my nightmares and the image I have in my head when I cut the apex of the trees I'm trying to grow out. I of course realize that coast redwoods backbud VERY WELL. But I really think it is this fear (and not a lack of patience) that drives beginners like me to chop the top off of apically dominant species that grow fast.

Well on the topic, what is the best plan of action for growing out trees that are apically dominant and that do not readily backbud?

Look here:

Advice for pruning Giant Redwood

This tree is rather bushy. It has really nice branches, but I’m curious how/when people usually prune these. I’ve never owned one before. Any advice is appreciated.

www.bonsainut.com

Particularly Brian Bay from Fresno:
"Are you talking about a coastal redwood (Sequoia sempervirens), or the giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum)? If coastal redwood, they are unusual. If you prune branches back past the green, you'll probably lose the branch. But, if you take all the branches off you'll probably get lots of back budding on the trunk and can grow new ones from scratch. If you are developing the fine branching and foliage, only prune when they are actively growing, and never prune back past the innermost swelling bud - or past a bifurcation on green foliage. Then you can stimulate more back budding by pinching out the growing tips of all the remaining foliage. During the growing season it takes daily maintenance to keep the foliage developing and in check. Kind of a pain, actually."

 

[Newbietoredwood]

Here's a cool giant Redwood, grown by Smithy in the UK from seed over 20 years. He used to post on here and IBC a long time ago. This is a recent pic
View attachment 485837

I have known Smithy for more years than I care to remember. A true gent in bonsai. I saw his sequoia in his front garden about twelve years ago and saw that he has recently offered it for sale. He posted shortly afterwards that he had sold it to a friend who was leaving it with Smithy to look after. Good outcome all round.
I have one of Smithy's trees in my own collection. A well developed copper beech with me for about 7 or 8 years (maybe more ... I forget). It is slow to wake up this year but the buds are swelling so I'm not concerned.

 

[BobbyLane]

I have known Smithy for more years than I care to remember. A true gent in bonsai. I saw his sequoia in his front garden about twelve years ago and saw that he has recently offered it for sale. He posted shortly afterwards that he had sold it to a friend who was leaving it with Smithy to look after. Good outcome all round.
I have one of Smithy's trees in my own collection. A well developed copper beech with me for about 7 or 8 years (maybe more ... I forget). It is slow to wake up this year but the buds are swelling so I'm not concerned.

Cool I wasnt aware he sold that piece. So were you on weetrees then? love to see the Beech, maybe start a thread on it. I know he sold a Copper beech to Gwen on weetrees. Some beeches are late while some are in full leaf. Harry harrington was saying on FB that they often push out first and second week of may so its not that late for beeches really.
Smithy helped me a lot when I first started on the weetrees forum, his trees were inspiring to me.

 

[Newbietoredwood]

Look here:

Advice for pruning Giant Redwood

This tree is rather bushy. It has really nice branches, but I’m curious how/when people usually prune these. I’ve never owned one before. Any advice is appreciated.

www.bonsainut.com

Particularly Brian Bay from Fresno:
"Are you talking about a coastal redwood (Sequoia sempervirens), or the giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum)? If coastal redwood, they are unusual. If you prune branches back past the green, you'll probably lose the branch. But, if you take all the branches off you'll probably get lots of back budding on the trunk and can grow new ones from scratch. If you are developing the fine branching and foliage, only prune when they are actively growing, and never prune back past the innermost swelling bud - or past a bifurcation on green foliage. Then you can stimulate more back budding by pinching out the growing tips of all the remaining foliage. During the growing season it takes daily maintenance to keep the foliage developing and in check. Kind of a pain, actually."

That's very useful. Thank you. My dawn redwood experience tells me not to touch branches that have not lignified and bifurcated. The advice on coasts is slightly different but I understand where he is going.

 

[Newbietoredwood]

Cool I wasnt aware he sold that piece. So were you on weetrees then? love to see the Beech, maybe start a thread on it. I know he sold a Copper beech to Gwen on weetrees. Some beeches are late while some are in full leaf. Harry harrington was saying on FB that they often push out first and second week of may so its not that late for beeches really.
Smithy helped me a lot when I first started on the weetrees forum, his trees were inspiring to me.

That was me!!! Weetrees is still going apparently though not like the old days.
Were you on there at the same time as Arihato ? I also follow Randomgary on his facebook page although I don't think he has bonsai any more. I also met Sputnik at a recent big bonsai show.

 

[BobbyLane]

That was me!!! Weetrees is still going apparently though not like the old days.

Ah I see! Welcome then Miss Potter
There's a handful of folk here from weetrees, TomB and PaulPash, Jerry Norbury is around somewhere too. Youre in good hands here, you'll find folk from all over the world.
ps yes I was around when Arihato had his Larches

 

[rockm]

That's very useful. Thank you. My dawn redwood experience tells me not to touch branches that have not lignified and bifurcated. The advice on coasts is slightly different but I understand where he is going.

I'd be careful about thinking Coastal redwoods are very similar to Dawn Redwoods.


For the most part, Dawn Redwoods in bonsai cultivation have more in common with Bald Cypress (Which is also related to redwoods) than with the California Redwoods. Dawn Redwood and Bald Cypress come from similar climate and environments, lowlands and wetlands. Neither California redwood species (Coastal and Sequoia) like wet soils.

 

[Newbietoredwood]

LOL, didn't mean to offend (and definitely didn't know your experience level). My mistakes have been caused by what I state above and I see many a newb state "I will cut the trunk to fatten it" which makes no sense. Was only trying to lower the learning curve for someone I thought was a fellow newb. My bad.

I understand. I am only new to redwoods.

 

[Newbietoredwood]

Ah I see! Welcome then Miss Potter
There's a handful of folk here from weetrees, TomB and PaulPash, Jerry Norbury is around somewhere too. Youre in good hands here, you'll find folk from all over the world.
ps yes I was around when Arihato had his Larches

Arihato very kindly sent me free of charge a small tree with another that I had paid for. That small tree has outlived the one I bought and is a lovely little blackthorn which flowered well this year.

 

[ChefB]

Arihato very kindly sent me free of charge a small tree with another that I had paid for. That small tree has outlived the one I bought and is a lovely little blackthorn which flowered well this year.

Great flowers on a blackthorn!

 

[Emanon]

Look here:

Advice for pruning Giant Redwood

This tree is rather bushy. It has really nice branches, but I’m curious how/when people usually prune these. I’ve never owned one before. Any advice is appreciated.

www.bonsainut.com

Particularly Brian Bay from Fresno:
"Are you talking about a coastal redwood (Sequoia sempervirens), or the giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum)? If coastal redwood, they are unusual. If you prune branches back past the green, you'll probably lose the branch. But, if you take all the branches off you'll probably get lots of back budding on the trunk and can grow new ones from scratch. If you are developing the fine branching and foliage, only prune when they are actively growing, and never prune back past the innermost swelling bud - or past a bifurcation on green foliage. Then you can stimulate more back budding by pinching out the growing tips of all the remaining foliage. During the growing season it takes daily maintenance to keep the foliage developing and in check. Kind of a pain, actually."

That's all well and good for the branches but I think the fact remains that, re the trunk, a lot of beginners like myself think that if they plant and just let their apically dominant trees grow out for years that they will end up like all the trees we see in nurseries in 15 gallon and up pots -- i.e. bare for the first few feet above the ground and without taper. Or, to put it another way, I could see myself "growing out" a tree for 10 years and then posting a picture of it on here to get advice re next steps and the very first response being: "I would air layer it somewhere closer but below the first branch because the first 1/3 of your tree, being bare and without taper, draws all my attention and not in a good way." That's the fear I think that leads beginners to chop the apex off.

I think most of us come into the hobby with the belief (it sounds like maybe mistaken?) that if I chop off the apex of my apically dominant tree it will allow light down to lower branches (preventing the tree from shedding these branches) and will just, in general, force growth down some how. And, it also seems intuitive when you're first starting out that if we chop, and doing so strengthens lower branches, then these branches will increase taper, or thickening, but down low on the trunk. I sacrifice my trunk from becoming thick quick to prevent my tree from looking like every landscape tree I see all around me (again, bare at the bottom and without taper). Most beginners after all are young and aren't really in so much of a rush. They aren't thinking like "I need to get my trunk thick quick because I'll be dead before I ever get to start the ramification process." When you're young and just starting out, you think you have all the time in the world. So the process usually is grow out for a few years, chop the apex off, bend a branch up to be the next apex, and repeat...

Are those of us beginners who think like this completely off when we're chopping before the trunk gets to the thickness we like... trying to find a balance between thickening of the trunk and keeping lower branches alive and full of growth?

 

[dbonsaiw]

That's all well and good for the branches but I think the fact remains that, re the trunk, a lot of beginners like myself think that if they plant and just let their apically dominant trees grow out for years that they will end up like all the trees we see in nurseries in 15 gallon and up pots -- i.e. bare for the first few feet above the ground and without taper. Or, to put it another way, I could see myself "growing out" a tree for 10 years and then posting a picture of it on here to get advice re next steps and the very first response being: "I would air layer it somewhere closer but below the first branch because the first 1/3 of your tree, being bare and without taper, draws all my attention and not in a good way." That's the fear I think that leads beginners to chop the apex off.

I think most of us come into the hobby with the belief (it sounds like maybe mistaken?) that if I chop off the apex of my apically dominant tree it will allow light down to lower branches (preventing the tree from shedding these branches) and will just, in general, force growth down some how. And, it also seems intuitive when you're first starting out that if we chop, and doing so strengthens lower branches, then these branches will increase taper, or thickening, but down low on the trunk. I sacrifice my trunk from becoming thick quick to prevent my tree from looking like every landscape tree I see all around me (again, bare at the bottom and without taper). Most beginners after all are young and aren't really in so much of a rush. They aren't thinking like "I need to get my trunk thick quick because I'll be dead before I ever get to start the ramification process." When you're young and just starting out, you think you have all the time in the world. So the process usually is grow out for a few years, chop the apex off, bend a branch up to be the next apex, and repeat...

Are those of us beginners who think like this completely off when we're chopping before the trunk gets to the thickness we like... trying to find a balance between thickening of the trunk and keeping lower branches alive and full of growth?

Just some anecdotal comments. In this family, I only have a few dawn redwoods and one bald cypress. But I find these to be very different than say my maples. The maple canopy will crowd out lower buds and I may need to let light in to prevent this. So far, I am not finding this with my redwoods (only have the BC for a few weeks). The branching in fact is denser lower down and the branches longer and I can't see how the upper part can shade out the lower here. Given that the branching is so dense lower down, the tree is indeed forming taper without any cut. Most (if not all) the trees I work with backbud well, so I can generally worry about lower branches at a later point when I am satisfied with the trunk. If I muck up the nebari in the process I will ground layer, but only to fix the roots, not the branches.

In short, my plan for the redwoods is just to let them grow until the trunk is good and fat. Then I will basically treat it like a BC, give it a chop and start working on the new leader. I'm not too concerned about simply taking off branches that are too fat at a later date (should I be?).

 

[BrianBay9]

Here are some young, 30 - 40 ft coastal redwoods in my back yard. You can see that they continue to throw new growth at the bottom despite being shaded. I'm betting their trunk diameter would be sufficient for anyone's plans....If chopped they will start again from the bottom growth. I wouldn't worry about letting a young redwood run until you get the trunk thickness you want.

 

[LittleDingus]

At the size of bonsai, apical dominance in redwoods is only really a problem if you over crowd the tree. It's not like only the top 2' of a redwood ever has foliage. Grow one in isolation and it will look like a Christmas tree with foliage almost to the ground.

Apical dominance is a competitive trait in dense forests: must outrace neighbors to the light!

Lower branches die when they become a net negative to the tree. Keep them in the sun and they aren't until they get very long.