Collected Easten Red Cedar advice

[Bart99]

A few years ago when I first got into bonsai, I dug up a couple small trees in my yard (that needed to be removed anyway) and stuck them in pots. I've done almost nothing to them since then other than cut down the tops. In retrospect, I realize that was probably the exact wrong thing to do, but the damn thing s kept blowing over in the wind, so I figured I'd reduce the surface of the "sail".

Anyhow I have two trees that look similar. They have straight trunks with nothing happening for the first 6 inches or so.

Is there anything that can be done to these guys? (Only one tree is pictured).

Can one of them be made into a raft style? Does that work with Esstern red cedars?

(I think they're Eastern red cedars, but I'm not positive. We have them growing wild all over the place and when they get older the leaves become less pointy. I found some pictures of young ones that looked like this, but if I'm off base here, please correct me!)

 

[rockm]

They are ERC and they make pretty challenging (and mostly crappy) bonsai. They require specialized techniques to get their foliage tight, but mostly retain the long, lanky branching and habits as bonsai. Their trunks are mostly uninteresting beanpole straight things that aren't worth digging up.

Those ERC with interesting trunks are grafted with better juniper foliage (like shimpaku).

These things are all over the place here. They're not worth the time or trouble--unless you find a trunk that's been broken and regrown with some "movement" in the first foot or so. Those are extremely rare.

I've been doing bonsai in N.Va. for 25 years or so, including collecting trees. I have never seen an ERC worth the time and effort. Why bother--there are so many more interesting species around here (hornbeam, black cherry, wild wisteria, blackhaw, bittersweet, blueberry, sheep laurel, etc.) that are worth the effort.

 

[Bart99]

Thanks rockm! Not the answer I was hoping for, but certainly good to know for the future.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Notwithstanding negative remarks raft could be done. If keeping upright wider shallower pot is needed for growing and developing. And not blowing over. Also if upright style is used should start wiring developing lowest branch and gradually cutting down tree to this branch over at least a couple years. Since trunk is pretty heavy to bend after upper trunk has been removed lower trunk could be split and side not used removed above roots. Then trunk could be tightly wrapped in raffia and bent or twisted as desired. There are American Cedars that have been developed well so it can be done.

 

[rockm]

Notwithstanding negative remarks raft could be done. If keeping upright wider shallower pot is needed for growing and developing. And not blowing over. Also if upright style is used should start wiring developing lowest branch and gradually cutting down tree to this branch over at least a couple years. Since trunk is pretty heavy to bend after upper trunk has been removed lower trunk could be split and side not used removed above roots. Then trunk could be tightly wrapped in raffia and bent or twisted as desired. There are American Cedars that have been developed well so it can be done.

Jeez, really? Yeah, I'm Negative Nancy

Look, this species is simply not worth the effort, believe me, I wish it were. They're all over the place. Yes, there are some "well developed" ERC, but they can probably be counted on two hands.

Yes, you could do a raft, but why bother? This is uninteresting material. Yes, you could bend it with wire, but given the caliper, not very much. The results of that year's long rafting project (these won't root very quickly from the trunk), will be a long, mostly uniteresting raft root line sprouting largely uninteresting trunks.

Frankly, I could develop a pretty decent collected Carolina hornbeam bonsai almost completely in the time you get this to root. Pick your battles...better material is out there that won't make you want to walk in front of a bus out of frustration after five years.

 

[crust]

They are ERC and they make pretty challenging (and mostly crappy) bonsai. They require specialized techniques to get their foliage tight, but mostly retain the long, lanky branching and habits as bonsai. Their trunks are mostly uninteresting beanpole straight things that aren't worth digging up.

Those ERC with interesting trunks are grafted with better juniper foliage (like shimpaku).

These things are all over the place here. They're not worth the time or trouble--unless you find a trunk that's been broken and regrown with some "movement" in the first foot or so. Those are extremely rare.

I've been doing bonsai in N.Va. for 25 years or so, including collecting trees. I have never seen an ERC worth the time and effort. Why bother--there are so many more interesting species around here (hornbeam, black cherry, wild wisteria, blackhaw, bittersweet, blueberry, sheep laurel, etc.) that are worth the effort.

There are cool ERC with large bases, taper and exciting shapes-- they grow on the rocks and are rare and localized and yes do have troublesome characteristics--and in additional one being they revert foliage with the slightest shifts in their roots. I have cultivated a few as bonsai for 15-20 years. I think the whole key to dealing with species like this is A) truly accept the level of effort, time and expense of growing trees then realize you must multiply this by X 3 for these projects. B) Assuming you have the horticultural chops, only go for the spectacular, awesome trees, the ones with great trunks or exceptional features--if you are going to get a bean-pole or a runt just get a decent shimpaku or a blue alps or something--drive 1200 miles, drop 500 bucks and and you'll be farther ahead. If you are just experimenting with weeds then at minimum get them out of field soil as soon as possible--don't wait until later, If they are young and non-precious and in dirt, thoroughly clean 1/3 or even 1/2 of the rootball upon collection and pack with pumice or perlite based substrate and then again as soon as you dare until its all gone. Thats my 2 cents

 

[sorce]

True....I haven't seen any outstanding specimens...short what @Vin may be onto.

I still will keep mine...

But RockM is making quite the convincing arguements.

Also, thanks for the info Crust.

J. Crack, I'll cut em till they die!

Sorce

 

[miker]

Due to having NO $ to spend on trees (the little I can (and still shouldn't) spend is going toward fertilizer), I have been collecting tree seedlings locally as of late. In the last 3 months I have added the following species to my collection this way for eventual bonsai training: Liquidambar styraciflua, Acer rubrum, Cinnamomum camphora, Taxodium distichum, Carpinus caroliniana, Triadica sebifera, Quercus virginiana and Podocarpus macrophyllus.

I actually saw an ERC volunteer under a sparse hedge at Rollins College. It had obviously been sprayed with roundup but only part of the vegetation was killed as of last I checked and I plan to collect it if still alive next time I pass by. ERC is native to the Orlando area and is somewhat, though not extremely common here. The really large ones I see tend to have a difficult to describe shape/form (maybe a tall, elongated broom style) , so I have no idea what to do as far as styling. Large, really old ERC can have a lot of character, but imitating this in bonsai form seems particularly difficult with this species, just based on what I have seen with younger material. When I lived in Fairfax County, VA, I saw spindly young trees of this species all over in forests and disturbed areas.

Nonetheless, I would like to have one of our native cedar/juniper (Juniperus virginiana) in a pot to play around with and just see what happens.

Correction: What we have in Central FL is the "Southern" or "Sand" Red Cedar, considered by some to be a separate taxon.

 

[Waltron]

id just plant it in the ground as a landscape tree, or at least try your bonsai research while its ground planted. however keep in mind these are known to produce and attract cedar apple rust which can easily spread to your other trees such as hawthorne and crab apple

hey @rockm you ever mess with an aspen? they seem to have nice small leaves and white bark, have a bunch growing by me in the same harsh areas that these ERC grow. The wood seems soft though and seems to turn black when scarred.. I was thinking of collecting one or two, maybe an old gnarly one thats been abused by deer and maybe a thick white one with no scars. im sure there is some drawback as I've not seen many as bonsai but even the old trees are covered in leaves less than 3/4" x 3/4"..,

 

[rockm]

id just plant it in the ground as a landscape tree, or at least try your bonsai research while its ground planted. however keep in mind these are known to produce and attract cedar apple rust which can easily spread to your other trees such as hawthorne and crab apple

hey @rockm you ever mess with an aspen? they seem to have nice small leaves and white bark, have a bunch growing by me in the same harsh areas that these ERC grow. The wood seems soft though and seems to turn black when scarred.. I was thinking of collecting one or two, maybe an old gnarly one thats been abused by deer and maybe a thick white one with no scars. im sure there is some drawback as I've not seen many as bonsai but even the old trees are covered in leaves less than 3/4" x 3/4"..,

Aspen are like black cherry, willow and birch--pioneer species that have a tendency to act weird under bonsai cultivation, abandoning trunks, in favor of root suckers and stuff like that. Additionally, trees in some areas tend to be connected to the same, wide-ranging root system, which can make getting one out of the ground a challenge.

Some people have worked them however.

 

[sorce]

aspen?

@Dan W. Keeps an aspen or 2.

Sorce

 

[Tieball]

ERC can be work....and can be a sidetrack of interesting fun. Not very much reward though. Here's my ERC...dug out of the backyard weeds just like yours...twiggy and lanky....but 5 years ago. Contrary to what I might read...my ERC likes misting and moist soil. Is it spectacular?.....no. Has it been fun?....yeah. A lot of work?....no...not really. Does it have bonsai potential?.....probably not...but that doesn't stop me. It is characteristic of trees around me. Everything is natural. This was with spring growth. It thrives on neglect. It takes my severe winter climate without a problem and just adds character sitting in that box. And I haven't killed it.

I found 7 more around me. Straight. Tall....like in 24". Various trunk diameters....from 1" to 1/2". Scattered branching....but old looking. I'll make myself an ERC Forest.....just because I want to do that and have an empty box.

 

[sorce]

I'll make myself an ERC Forest..

I'm thinking the same thing..
I just found a few nice ones from 6 inches to about 4ft on the park fence I have permission to dig.

They are Friggin pretty!

Permission to dig in exchange for cleaning garbage, of course, my barefooted 4 year old risked getting the jagged bottom of this in his foot, but it was nasty enough to go through a shoe too.

I'm doing my part....may as well dig my spoils!

Sorce

 

[Tieball]

I'm thinking the same thing..
I just found a few nice ones from 6 inches to about 4ft on the park fence I have permission to dig. Sorce

And.....they are prickly. Those dried brown needles are sharp. Have a good dig.

 

[toscgwsndiqz]

Collected
Eastern red cedar
Juniperus virginiana

 

[Potawatomi13]

View attachment 108346

View attachment 108348

Collected
Eastern red cedar
Juniperus virginiana

Thank you for excellently nice tree.