Collected Hornbeam, Carpinus Caroliniana

just.wing.it

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I collected this stump this year in early April from a generous friend's land.
I did post some pics about the upside down buds that appeared, but this will be the progression thread.
Its been doing remarkably well, my track record with Hormbeams is not so stellar.
I have cut back a few of the longest branches this summer and more grew in, otherwise just water, fert and sun.

As you can see, some branches did come in on the trunk, and maybe more will show up next year.... But most of the growth is quite low on the trunk.... Maybe future multi-trunk material, and that main stump would have to go.....?

The tree is deep in the pot, so I wont get a good feel for how it looks until repotting time.....which might wait until spring '21. It's flat cut is actually flat on the bottom of the pot.

Is 2 years in the pot after collection too long?
Should I repot next year, spring '20?
My thinking is that slower is better, and this tree had just about zero roots on it when I sawed it out of the ground and cut it flat.....so better to give it 2 seasons of growing.
Thoughts?

Early pics first followed by pics from today.
Unfortunately I dont have any pics of the nebari.
20190422_173828.jpg20190422_173904.jpg20190422_173904.jpg20190422_174005.jpg20190422_173523.jpg20190422_173456.jpg
 

cmeg1

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These have great leaves.Always loved seeing them in the woods.Large specimens are rare.Though I know where a few grand daddy’s are that are just surrounded with seedlings spread out quite far.
 

just.wing.it

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These have great leaves.Always loved seeing them in the woods.Large specimens are rare.Though I know where a few grand daddy’s are that are just surrounded with seedlings spread out quite far.
You're right, I never see big ones in the woods....are they "under-story" trees?

My buddy has a bunch on his property, and they are all in the woods surrounded by towering oaks, sycamores, tulip poplars and recently killed Ash trees.
The hornbeams and hollies are in the shade.
 

BobbyLane

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I collected this stump this year in early April from a generous friend's land.
I did post some pics about the upside down buds that appeared, but this will be the progression thread.
Its been doing remarkably well, my track record with Hormbeams is not so stellar.
I have cut back a few of the longest branches this summer and more grew in, otherwise just water, fert and sun.

As you can see, some branches did come in on the trunk, and maybe more will show up next year.... But most of the growth is quite low on the trunk.... Maybe future multi-trunk material, and that main stump would have to go.....?

The tree is deep in the pot, so I wont get a good feel for how it looks until repotting time.....which might wait until spring '21. It's flat cut is actually flat on the bottom of the pot.

Is 2 years in the pot after collection too long?
Should I repot next year, spring '20?
My thinking is that slower is better, and this tree had just about zero roots on it when I sawed it out of the ground and cut it flat.....so better to give it 2 seasons of growing.
Thoughts?

Early pics first followed by pics from today.
Unfortunately I dont have any pics of the nebari.
View attachment 254818View attachment 254819View attachment 254820View attachment 254821View attachment 254822View attachment 254823
thats a bit of an odd question! two years is never going to be too long in a pot, after collection. in general, the more top growth the better, considering there wasnt much roots at collection. more top growth means more root growth.
if there is more trunk under the soil, then im not sure clump is the way to go really. only you know exactly how much root and trunk is under there. you could probably lift it out of the pot at the end of the season to see whats going on.
 

cmeg1

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You're right, I never see big ones in the woods....are they "under-story" trees?

My buddy has a bunch on his property, and they are all in the woods surrounded by towering oaks, sycamores, tulip poplars and recently killed Ash trees.
The hornbeams and hollies are in the shade.
Definately understory.The biggest one I found is at Lums Pond with trunk between 1-2’ if I am correct.I was amazed.It hangs over the lake and seedlings grow very lush there.Probably good soil or something.
I discovered about half an acre of seedlings and couldn’t figure out where they were coming from but I finally found the big granddaddy tree
 

just.wing.it

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thats a bit of an odd question! two years is never going to be too long in a pot, after collection. in general, the more top growth the better, considering there wasnt much roots at collection. more top growth means more root growth.
if there is more trunk under the soil, then im not sure clump is the way to go really. only you know exactly how much root and trunk is under there. you could probably lift it out of the pot at the end of the season to see whats going on.
Thanks Bobby!
I agree about the clump....if I recall, the tree has good basal flare, but not as many main roots as would be desirable.
Hornbeam are beauty! I would prefer to see this as just one tree, no clump. I would imagine it will gain more vigour in the coming years, keep at it!
Yeah....I'd like to keep the trunk, hope its not all dead.
 

JudyB

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I love hornbeams. I'm not someone who regularly suggests ground growing, but for this one, I would certainly think it would be a good idea. If you want to have some taper in the trunk then you'll be doing some reduction(s) over many growing seasons. You'll get a better timeframe for that in the ground. At the very least I would suggest a large grow box. I like the control of a pot for material that has already got the proportions in place, but not when growing the structure for something like this... Looks like an exciting tree to develop, hope that base is super under there...
 

just.wing.it

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I love hornbeams. I'm not someone who regularly suggests ground growing, but for this one, I would certainly think it would be a good idea. If you want to have some taper in the trunk then you'll be doing some reduction(s) over many growing seasons. You'll get a better timeframe for that in the ground. At the very least I would suggest a large grow box. I like the control of a pot for material that has already got the proportions in place, but not when growing the structure for something like this... Looks like an exciting tree to develop, hope that base is super under there...
Love that bark. I’m with Judy though, I’d spend the time to build at least a second section of trunk.
Thanks both of you!
That sounds like a good idea....putting it in the ground....it could get even more sun out there.
I think that's the plan for now. When buds are pushing next spring, I'll throw it in the earth and let it run wild.

I think the basal flare is quite wide under there, and a second trunk section to stretch out the whole image sounds like it is needed.
Thanks again!
 

just.wing.it

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If you don't get any buds up higher and the trunk is not dead, you could thread graft. The seem to take very well, at least on mine, I have done two.
Another great idea!
I haven't gone down the grafting road yet, but maybe this will be the tree that gets me there.
Thanks MM!
 

Soldano666

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, my track record with Hormbeams is not so stellar.
Same here. I've got a couple weaklings left. I got lots of die back year 2. Year 3 some woke up rrreeeeally slow then died and some just never woke up. That was enough for me to not bother trying again. I've heard second year dieback is common as well as instant death year tree. One in particular put out amazing growth during year two then never woke up this spring. They were kept in the garage and packed with snow for insulation and water as it melted. No idea as to why, there were no signs of fungal issues or no root disturbance in or out of season. The dead ones I've inspected all had nice roots and no signs of rot. Frustrating to say the least
 

just.wing.it

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Update.
Been growing well and continuously, even through the 100+ degree awfulness.
Here it is today.
The leader up high is promising.....but I wouldn't want to speculate or else @Smoke The Speculation Detective, might come and get me.

20190817_144736.jpg20190817_144759.jpg20190817_144823.jpg

I hope the humble beginnings of this tree aren't too offensive to your sensibilities Mr. @Smoke .
 

TN_Jim

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I’d consider trying bending that branch/leader up more.. maybe push it up where you want it to go to let it get used to the idea, massage it, then make it go up and put something between the wire or whatever...

I say this because one of my favorite developing trees is one of the same, and I have the same leader that I will chop to that came out at the same angle seen in your photo..almost 90* (point of origin). I even asked here and was recommended (thanks MF) to bend it up. bentup works in scrabble around here, house rules

however, I did not bend it enough and it doesn’t look as congruent with the trunk as I wish it did and never will....thinking that angle just brings more attention to the chop location itself..

I have some other hornbeams I collected this year and today I started checking the flexibility of these leader branches to avoid what’s happening with the aforementioned and it seems ok, or they’re still flexible.

I plan on putting something between the wire and the branch and trunk to avoid bite....just thoughts man..either way I water these more than any other needed or not..this species is really something
thanks
 

just.wing.it

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I’d consider trying bending that branch/leader up more.. maybe push it up where you want it to go to let it get used to the idea, massage it, then make it go up and put something between the wire or whatever...

I say this because one of my favorite developing trees is one of the same, and I have the same leader that I will chop to that came out at the same angle seen in your photo..almost 90* (point of origin). I even asked here and was recommended (thanks MF) to bend it up. bentup works in scrabble around here, house rules

however, I did not bend it enough and it doesn’t look as congruent with the trunk as I wish it did and never will....thinking that angle just brings more attention to the chop location itself..

I have some other hornbeams I collected this year and today I started checking the flexibility of these leader branches to avoid what’s happening with the aforementioned and it seems ok, or they’re still flexible.

I plan on putting something between the wire and the branch and trunk to avoid bite....just thoughts man..either way I water these more than any other needed or not..this species is really something
thanks
Good thoughts! I do appreciate the input.

That bud originally came out upside-down....with that said I'm happy with how much it has self corrected.

I may give that branch a little closer look today and see about that.

I have a feeling that I'm going to want to plant this tree back in the ground after a few years in this pot.
There were no roots on it at collection, its planted flat on the bottom of this pot and the nebari is wide....just needs more roots to improve.
Once it goes back in the ground, I think that this new leader will thicken substantially, smoothing out the transition while giving the trunk some good movement, which it lacks at this point.
And obviously, once that new leader has given me a new section of trunk, carving of the chop site will be in order and a canopy can begin.

My greatest concern with this tree is that it has so much growth down low and the higher growth is relatively one sided....hoping that the whole side of the trunk is not dead.
......but again I speculate, and @Smoke, P.I., the Chief Detective of Bonsai Related Speculation will surely have my head on a silver platter for even thinking about future possibilities.....I mean why consider things in one's mind at all, why not simply act with no speculation of potential outcomes?
I've explained my Handle on this site before, but that's exactly what Smoke aonecommends we all do, don't ya know!.....just wing it.
 

TN_Jim

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My greatest concern with this tree is that it has so much growth down low and the higher growth is relatively one sided....hoping that the whole side of the trunk is not dead.
all that low growth is a goldmine of thread grafts..by that time next year you should know where any crunchy spots on the trunk are...that is, as long as you can evade the Sheriff of Nannerpuff
 

just.wing.it

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all that low growth is a goldmine of thread grafts..by that time next year you should know where any crunchy spots on the trunk are...that is, as long as you can evade the Sheriff of Nannerpuff
Yeah! Great idea!
Maybe get some thread grafts started either next year or the following, then throw it in the ground.
I would bet that thread grafts would take better in the ground....or at least take faster.
 
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