Collected Southern Live Oak

markyscott

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Has anyone done a natural spreading to the ground of a cluster? Does anyone know of one? This is the image that’s anti-bonsai that I want to miniaturize. I love live oaks like this!

This is all true. I just see a lot of people saying various things aren’t “bonsai” which is why I put it in quotes. In particular Peter Chan is a bit of mix. He’s accepting of what others want their trees to look like but prefers more traditional in the videos I’ve seen. I don’t want to alienate anyone, just I feel my vision of what the live oak look I want is against the “rules” most people judge bonsai by. But if you guys say it’s ok then I am impressed with all of your character and happy that I’m here. I am perfectly willing to put 50 years in to the project. I have some ideas that once I get my live oak saplings I’ll run by everyone.

Conferring your impression of an old southern live oak in bonsai would be an interesting project. I’m not sure that using a live oak to execute it would be the best option, but who knows. I might try with a chinese elm - one could imagine it as a kind of an informal broom style but build the branch structure in the way you see your live oak growing.

S
 

markyscott

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Great thread. Wonderful to see what you've done and a privilege to have you show us how it was done with all these great photos.

Thank you - I’m glad you feel as though you got something out of it.

S
 

penumbra

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Agree with everything you said, but just wanted to point out that the comment above might be regional. Along the gulf coast, you’re exactly right. The southern live oak are solitary and grow similar to that in the picture by Trenthany (I’m guessing thats the Angel Oak in South Carolina). But when you head inland, the climate rapidly becomes more arid and southern live oak take on a very different habit. A very common motif is for them to appear in a copse - most people here call them a mott. I’m not sure what it is that makes them grow this way as you leave the coast, but the change is very noticeable and very intertesting. Here are some examples:

View attachment 313707View attachment 313708View attachment 313709View attachment 313710View attachment 313711
They are beautiful clusters of oaks. Thanks for sharing.
 

Trenthany

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Agree with everything you said, but just wanted to point out that the comment above might be regional. Along the gulf coast, you’re exactly right. The southern live oak are solitary and grow similar to that in the picture by Trenthany (I’m guessing thats the Angel Oak in South Carolina). But when you head inland, the climate rapidly becomes more arid and southern live oak take on a very different habit. A very common motif is for them to appear in a copse - most people here call them a mott. I’m not sure what it is that makes them grow this way as you leave the coast, but the change is very noticeable and very intertesting. Here are some examples:

View attachment 313707View attachment 313708View attachment 313709View attachment 313710View attachment 313711
First and fourth are pictures of what I want. Especially fourth. I expect it to be a very long term project in oak but may try to double up and do a faster growing version to entertain me in the mean time.

I actually couldn’t find the trunk cluster I liked just the branches. That’s a random internet photo so it may be the angel oak.
 

penumbra

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First and fourth are pictures of what I want. Especially fourth. I expect it to be a very long term project in oak but may try to double up and do a faster growing version to entertain me in the mean time.

I actually couldn’t find the trunk cluster I liked just the branches. That’s a random internet photo so it may be the angel oak.
The 4th picture you are referring to would be much easier than the picture you showed but either would be a daunting task. I have not used any of the small leafed oaks of California due to my climate, but perhaps you could in yours. Still, the look you are drawn to, that is picture #4, would be easier to accomplish with elm. Hackberry is also a possibility. The Chinese Hackberry has a smaller leaf than the American Hackberry.
I would imagine that a group planting of Southern Live Oak would have to be a huge bonsai planting to be believable. By huge, I mean a finished planting weighing hundreds of pounds.
I suggest you start playing with some groupings of young trees or seedlings right away as it is a very long road.
 

Djtommy

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First and fourth are pictures of what I want. Especially fourth. I expect it to be a very long term project in oak but may try to double up and do a faster growing version to entertain me in the mean time.

I actually couldn’t find the trunk cluster I liked just the branches. That’s a random internet photo so it may be the angel oak.
Maybe you like this?
39E7120B-B068-4D02-BD56-028A192C6AED.jpeg
 

Trenthany

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The 4th picture you are referring to would be much easier than the picture you showed but either would be a daunting task. I have not used any of the small leafed oaks of California due to my climate, but perhaps you could in yours. Still, the look you are drawn to, that is picture #4, would be easier to accomplish with elm. Hackberry is also a possibility. The Chinese Hackberry has a smaller leaf than the American Hackberry.
I would imagine that a group planting of Southern Live Oak would have to be a huge bonsai planting to be believable. By huge, I mean a finished planting weighing hundreds of pounds.
I suggest you start playing with some groupings of young trees or seedlings right away as it is a very long road.
Thank you for the advice. My minimum expected radius is 2-3’ and maybe up to 4-5’ I’m hoping to keep it around 3-5 foot diameter and am waiting on seedlings as I type this. Hopefully today!

I figure wire early. And grow grow grow chop chop chop. Then after 20-50 years I might have it ready to show! Lol

Thank you for the advice on species that could work as a second faster version too! That will help me with my planning for the oak maybe and entertain me in the meantime!
 

Djtommy

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I love that! It’s not exactly what I want to go for but it’s far far closer to the principle of what I want to do than anything else I’ve seen done in bonsai. That looks like a real miniature tree!
It’s tree from Kokufu exhibition in japan. Lots of trees look like reall miniature trees here so just keep an open mind to everything.
but I think we should keep this thread for Scott’s live oak which is comming along nicely.
 

Trenthany

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It’s tree from Kokufu exhibition in japan. Lots of trees look like reall miniature trees here so just keep an open mind to everything.
but I think we should keep this thread for Scott’s live oak which is comming along nicely.
His is a beautiful oak too! I’ve been looking for a while and haven’t seen one like I’m envisioning but I love all oaks!
 
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This is a southern live oak that grows by my kid's school. When I found a neglected tree at a nursery with huge suckers I knew it was my chance to mimic this. Originally I thought my first southern live oak would resemble Angel Oak, but life doesn't always work out as planned lol.

I performed the initial chops on the suckers and left the main trunk. I actually started wiring out the suckers like angel oak, but it just didn't feel right. I've since wired the branches more upright to be back in line with the inspiration tree. Next spring the main trunk will be cut and the branches on the suckers will be cut back as well. I hope to pull it out of the the ground in 2-4 years.

1593994605513.png
1593994673163.png

1593994715789.png
 

Trenthany

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This is a southern live oak that grows by my kid's school. When I found a neglected tree at a nursery with huge suckers I knew it was my chance to mimic this. Originally I thought my first southern live oak would resemble Angel Oak, but life doesn't always work out as planned lol.

I performed the initial chops on the suckers and left the main trunk. I actually started wiring out the suckers like angel oak, but it just didn't feel right. I've since wired the branches more upright to be back in line with the inspiration tree. Next spring the main trunk will be cut and the branches on the suckers will be cut back as well. I hope to pull it out of the the ground in 2-4 years.

View attachment 313945
View attachment 313947

View attachment 313948
Very cool! Yes exactly what I’m wanting to try! I swear by google you’d think me and you were the only two bonsai people interested in multitrunk live oak bonsai! I’ve been hunting one because if it’s been started I could either pickup where someone left off or there may be a prebonsai. No luck yet. Make sure you go look at marky’s tree too though. It’s a gorgeous live oak he’s done a ton of work on.
 

rockm

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This is all true. I just see a lot of people saying various things aren’t “bonsai” which is why I put it in quotes. In particular Peter Chan is a bit of mix. He’s accepting of what others want their trees to look like but prefers more traditional in the videos I’ve seen. I don’t want to alienate anyone, just I feel my vision of what the live oak look I want is against the “rules” most people judge bonsai by. But if you guys say it’s ok then I am impressed with all of your character and happy that I’m here. I am perfectly willing to put 50 years in to the project. I have some ideas that once I get my live oak saplings I’ll run by everyone.
if you're using live oak, then mostly the rules are very subjective. What you're after isn't common because live oak bonsai of any consequence and visual impart are LARGE bonsai. The point of having oak as bonsai is for age and character, if the stock you're using doesn't have that why bother...to get any character in an oak trunk or trunks typically involves collecting one. Live oak tends to grow in multi-trunked groups in the wild. Such growth is called a "mott". Those trees are usually all connected via common roots. I have to suppress those shoots on my live oak bonsai since it has a decent trunk on it already. Pic of my Texas collected live oak is below. have had it going on 25 years now.liveoak.jpgkingsville2.jpgkingsville.jpg

A substitute for live oak images that is less space consuming are boxwood. The pic above is of a Kingsville boxwood trained in the live oak style.
 
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Michael P

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Oaks of Texas! There are about 40 species of Quercus native to the state, the number varies depending if you are a lumper or a splitter.

The wonderful oak mottes of the Hill Country in Markycott's photos are usually natural hybrids of Southern live oak Q. virginiana and escarpment live oak Q. fusiformis. As you move farther inland to the northwest, Q. fusiformis becomes dominant. The form of the mottes is influenced by browsing by cattle and deer, and other ranching practices.

Q. fusiformis is about 50% smaller than Q. virginiana, with smaller leaves. It is also more cold hardy, drought tolerant, and better adapted to shallow, rocky, alkaline soils. It is naturally rhizomatous and forms multiple trunks. I think it would make a good species for bonsai. Fortunately a friend has started a tree nursery and is growing the species. I have right of first refusal for any escarpment live oaks that aren't "retail quality"--bent, multi-trunk, etc.
 

rockm

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Oaks of Texas! There are about 40 species of Quercus native to the state, the number varies depending if you are a lumper or a splitter.

The wonderful oak mottes of the Hill Country in Markycott's photos are usually natural hybrids of Southern live oak Q. virginiana and escarpment live oak Q. fusiformis. As you move farther inland to the northwest, Q. fusiformis becomes dominant. The form of the mottes is influenced by browsing by cattle and deer, and other ranching practices.

Q. fusiformis is about 50% smaller than Q. virginiana, with smaller leaves. It is also more cold hardy, drought tolerant, and better adapted to shallow, rocky, alkaline soils. It is naturally rhizomatous and forms multiple trunks. I think it would make a good species for bonsai. Fortunately a friend has started a tree nursery and is growing the species. I have right of first refusal for any escarpment live oaks that aren't "retail quality"--bent, multi-trunk, etc.
My live oak is fusiformis. Collected in Salado in the mid 90's. It's been bulletproof health-wise in container for two decades, leaves reduce, it produces acorns and twigs very well. Should be used more. I think it's superior to the main live oak species (quercus virginiana) in bonsai culture. It's tougher, more drought and cold tolerant than Q virginiana.
 

Trenthany

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Oaks of Texas! There are about 40 species of Quercus native to the state, the number varies depending if you are a lumper or a splitter.

The wonderful oak mottes of the Hill Country in Markycott's photos are usually natural hybrids of Southern live oak Q. virginiana and escarpment live oak Q. fusiformis. As you move farther inland to the northwest, Q. fusiformis becomes dominant. The form of the mottes is influenced by browsing by cattle and deer, and other ranching practices.

Q. fusiformis is about 50% smaller than Q. virginiana, with smaller leaves. It is also more cold hardy, drought tolerant, and better adapted to shallow, rocky, alkaline soils. It is naturally rhizomatous and forms multiple trunks. I think it would make a good species for bonsai. Fortunately a friend has started a tree nursery and is growing the species. I have right of first refusal for any escarpment live oaks that aren't "retail quality"--bent, multi-trunk, etc.
I would love some q. Fusiformis if it is smaller! Our only small oak in SW FL is scrub oaks and I’m working on some of those already! Lol Let me know what they would cost to ship and I’d love to buy some little ones to start training!
 

Trenthany

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Close to the end of the 2019 growing season. I removed all of the remaining wire and wired into place a couple of strong shoots that emerged over the summer that I think I’ll keep. I did a bit of light pruning and tightened up the guy wires a bit. Before and after.
View attachment 266595
View attachment 266594
Never meant to hijack lol I was just asking questions and started a war! I’ve learned a ton so thank you. I’ve also saved most of your images as references. How’s 2020 looking for your oaks?
 

markyscott

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Never meant to hijack lol I was just asking questions and started a war! I’ve learned a ton so thank you. I’ve also saved most of your images as references. How’s 2020 looking for your oaks?

Niente problemo. This is a discussion forum, so discuss. I have two oaks presently - the live oak that is the subject of this thread and a gray oak (Quercia grisea) that I haven’t started a thread on yet. Both are doing well - I’ll update with some photographs soon.

On a side note, I agree with @Michael P - I’d like to see a lot more people working with oaks. The US is a bit maple poor (in terms of the number of species suitable for bonsai culture). But we are pretty oak rich. Texas alone has nearly 40 different oak species but only 5 maple species and I’ve only seen a couple of oaks that have been attempted as bonsai. Maybe one day there will be more tried.

On another side note - you live pretty far south in Florida and your climate is quite different than ours. As hot as Houston is, we average close to 1600 heating degree-days and you have right around 550. That is not very much in the way of chill hours for most oak species. They might be fine, but they might not. Proceed with caution and start with species you know will do well in your climate. There’s enough to learn in bonsai without having to nurse along trees that are at the edge of their survival zone.

- S
 

Michael P

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My live oak is fusiformis. Collected in Salado in the mid 90's. It's been bulletproof health-wise in container for two decades, leaves reduce, it produces acorns and twigs very well. Should be used more. I think it's superior to the main live oak species (quercus virginiana) in bonsai culture. It's tougher, more drought and cold tolerant than Q virginiana.

Salado is on the eastern edge of what Benny Simpson called "the hybrid swarm". Q. fusiformis is named for the small elongated acorns, and these are the most reliable way to differentiate it from Q. virginiana. Of coure hybrid examples can have acorns of intermediate shape.
 

Trenthany

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Niente problemo. This is a discussion forum, so discuss. I have two oaks presently - the live oak that is the subject of this thread and a gray oak (Quercia grisea) that I haven’t started a thread on yet. Both are doing well - I’ll update with some photographs soon.

On a side note, I agree with @Michael P - I’d like to see a lot more people working with oaks. The US is a bit maple poor (in terms of the number of species suitable for bonsai culture). But we are pretty oak rich. Texas alone has nearly 40 different oak species but only 5 maple species and I’ve only seen a couple of oaks that have been attempted as bonsai. Maybe one day there will be more tried.

On another side note - you live pretty far south in Florida and your climate is quite different than ours. As hot as Houston is, we average close to 1600 heating degree-days and you have right around 550. That is not very much in the way of chill hours for most oak species. They might be fine, but they might not. Proceed with caution and start with species you know will do well in your climate. There’s enough to learn in bonsai without having to nurse along trees that are at the edge of their survival zone.

- S
I plan on using local but would love to try with a smaller species if it has similar growth characteristics still. They would have to remain a side project. Perhaps under a small shade cloth to keep heat off? Fans or misters? Both? All three? It gets cold enough local maples will turn color, but we definitely don’t get the snow and ice like you guys. Summers are very comparable though. Hmmm I didn’t know about the heating days numbers. More research! Lol I’m originally from Houston! Dad is still on the west side out by 6 a few miles north of 10. Next time I visit maybe I can impose and come see your trees?
 
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