Collected Southern Live Oak

[markyscott]

I didn’t know about the heating days numbers. More research!

Heating and cooling degree days are a very useful measure. It’s a scale built for energy use, so the reference is 65 F. Heating days are the number of degrees below 65 times the time it is below 65 in days. Cooling days are the number of degrees above 65 times the time it is above 65 in days. For me, it’s far more useful as a climate measure than horticultural zones. You can look up your area at degreedays.net

Here are some references:

City	Heating degree-days	Cooling degree-days
Houston, TX	1568	2876
Aspen, CO	8619	415
Tampa, FL	552	3848
Charlottesville, VA	3855	1704

 

[Trenthany]

V

Heating and cooling degree days are a very useful measure. It’s a scale built for energy use, so the reference is 65 F. Heating days are the number of degrees below 65 times the time it is below 65 in days. Cooling days are the number of degrees above 65 times the time it is above 65 in days. For me, it’s far more useful as a climate measure than horticultural zones. You can look up your area at degreedays.net

Here are some references:

City	Heating degree-days	Cooling degree-days
Houston, TX	1568	2876
Aspen, CO	8619	415
Tampa, FL	552	3848
Charlottesville, VA	3855	1704

Very cool! Tampa isn’t far but I’m going to see if even closer cities are in there! How do I know what the planet needs though? Just compare to native range?

 

[markyscott]

V

Very cool! Tampa isn’t far but I’m going to see if even closer cities are in there! How do I know what the planet needs though? Just compare to native range?

Plants are adaptable and can tolerate conditions out of their native range. They have their limits though, and can struggle if they aren’t adapted well for your climate. But it’s a measure that gives you a good starting point to estimate how different your climate is from where the plant grows. I tend to be more confident if it lives in somewhat similar conditions and less if it doesn’t. Where I’m less confident, I tend to buy some inexpensive plants to see how they’ll do. If you’re just starting out, I’d encourage you to try and stick to what grows well in your area and to avoid experimenting too much. You’ll end up nursing weak plants. You can’t work on weak plants. If you’re not working on plants, you’re not advancing your skills.

S

 

[Trenthany]

Plants are adaptable and can tolerate conditions out of their native range. They have their limits though, and can struggle if they aren’t adapted well for your climate. But it’s a measure that gives you a good starting point to estimate how different your climate is from where the plant grows. I tend to be more confident if it lives in somewhat similar conditions and less if it doesn’t. Where I’m less confident, I tend to buy some inexpensive plants to see how they’ll do. If you’re just starting out, I’d encourage you to try and stick to what grows well in your area and to avoid experimenting too much. You’ll end up nursing weak plants. You can’t work on weak plants. If you’re not working on plants, you’re not advancing your skills.

S

Very well put. The last few sentences should be posted in every thread in newcomer forums. Makes perfect sense!

 

[Trenthany]

PS seeing as you’re an imperial masterpiece something that seems to tie into level of participation or something similar perhaps you could explain that system? I can’t find a thread on it yet. There are also people with jokes in their subtitle/rank/whatever it is. For instance I went from seedling to yamadori as I started asking questions and picking fights lol. That makes me think it’s a post volume/quality ranking. Then there’s some that say things like pretty fly for a bonsai and I can’t remember sorce’s but his is a joking one too. Is that just being in the in crowd and the admin tweaking them? Or is it all just made up and the points don’t matter? Lol

 

[markyscott]

PS seeing as you’re an imperial masterpiece something that seems to tie into level of participation or something similar perhaps you could explain that system? I can’t find a thread on it yet. There are also people with jokes in their subtitle/rank/whatever it is. For instance I went from seedling to yamadori as I started asking questions and picking fights lol. That makes me think it’s a post volume/quality ranking. Then there’s some that say things like pretty fly for a bonsai and I can’t remember sorce’s but his is a joking one too. Is that just being in the in crowd and the admin tweaking them? Or is it all just made up and the points don’t matter? Lol

It just has to do with how many posts you’ve made. It has nothing to do with skill level or expertise. When people get to 10,000 posts, they get some kind of humorous title generally selected by the membership.

s

 

[Johnathan]

I don't know how I've missed this thread in all the time I've been here. Super sweet oak @markyscott

I'm curious on how you and @rockm overwinter your live oaks? Just mulched into the ground?

 

[markyscott]

I don't know how I've missed this thread in all the time I've been here. Super sweet oak @markyscott

I'm curious on how you and @rockm overwinter your live oaks? Just mulched into the ground?

I do nothing. They just stay on the benches. But then again, I don’t have much of a winter. It rarely dips below freezing here. I’d be curious to hear what @rockm does though.

- S

 

[rockm]

Salado is on the eastern edge of what Benny Simpson called "the hybrid swarm". Q. fusiformis is named for the small elongated acorns, and these are the most reliable way to differentiate it from Q. virginiana. Of coure hybrid examples can have acorns of intermediate shape.

I'm familiar with fusiformis. Have family all over east and north Texas. These trees were a part of my childhood. My bonsai has the small longer acorns, smaller leaves and tighter ramification that the trees in the wild do.

 

[rockm]

I don't know how I've missed this thread in all the time I've been here. Super sweet oak @markyscott

I'm curious on how you and @rockm overwinter your live oaks? Just mulched into the ground?

Here in N. Va., I could keep the oak mulched into the backyard growing beds for the winter. I did that for the first few years I had it. It slowed down a bit with that treatment, though as we got some stiff winters with temps into the single digits in late winter.

I began overwintering it in a cold greenhouse about 15 years ago. It has done much better with low temps getting only into the high 20's in that facility. The greenhouse probably isn't mandatory, but it's also very helpful and a reason the tree has been so healthy. I have a feeling that prolonged exposure to our winter would probably gradually kill it off. If I lived further south, say in N.C., I wouldn't bother with the extra winter protection.
I do think, however, that this species needs a period of winter chill to keep it healthy, like a period below 40. It has no problem with summer heat. Florida may not be cold enough in the winter to

Should also note that I also have a New Mexico collected Grey Oak (quercus gresia). It's an old tree. I have been overwintering that in my backyard under mulch for the last few years to see how it does. So far, it's doing well.

 

[Trenthany]

People keep saying live oaks need a cold spell to be healthy. Where are you learning this? I can’t find anything that confirms it yet. I believe you but figure maybe I’m missing resources. Lol.

 

[Trenthany]

Here in N. Va., I could keep the oak mulched into the backyard growing beds for the winter. I did that for the first few years I had it. It slowed down a bit with that treatment, though as we got some stiff winters with temps into the single digits in late winter.

I began overwintering it in a cold greenhouse about 15 years ago. It has done much better with low temps getting only into the high 20's in that facility. The greenhouse probably isn't mandatory, but it's also very helpful and a reason the tree has been so healthy. I have a feeling that prolonged exposure to our winter would probably gradually kill it off. If I lived further south, say in N.C., I wouldn't bother with the extra winter protection.
I do think, however, that this species needs a period of winter chill to keep it healthy, like a period below 40. It has no problem with summer heat. Florida may not be cold enough in the winter to View attachment 314264

Should also note that I also have a New Mexico collected Grey Oak (quercus gresia). It's an old tree. I have been overwintering that in my backyard under mulch for the last few years to see how it does. So far, it's doing well.

That tree is beautiful from here!

 

[rockm]

People keep saying live oaks need a cold spell to be healthy. Where are you learning this? I can’t find anything that confirms it yet. I believe you but figure maybe I’m missing resources. Lol.

You're confusing live oaks. There are many more than quercus virginiana. Quercus fusiformis is a cold hardy version of quercus virginiana. It grows inland in drier, colder regions, on more alkaline soils from north Texas up into Oklahoma that get regular freezes in winter. It evolved to handle those conditions. Some live into really cold areas down to USDA zone 6a. Quercus Virginiana can't handle much less than USDA zone 7 and even in that zone (it grows along the coast here in Va. Zone 7) it is a scrub bush and not a "tree"...

While I've never found an article that says fusiformis requires a cold pause, I'd be very surprised, given 20 years of watching my own tree and its natural distribution that it doesn't. It's my speculation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus fusiformis

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

What you're after isn't common because live oak bonsai of any consequence and visual impart are LARGE bonsai.

Haha, yup. I recognized this when I first started conceptualizing what a live oak in a bonsai pot would look like. Especially something like Angel Oak where the branches extend for awhile before touching the ground. I concluded that I'd have to use a slab if I were to do something along those lines. I've noticed some boxwood styled like a live oak which is pretty interesting. If you look at John Geanangel's latest garden tour video you can see his "live oak" plantation grove. It's built with boxwood and looks exactly like the driveway leading into a plantation.

As for American maples; has anyone worked much with Acer Rubrum? They grow like weeds here, so I've put a few into mix. All are relatively young and aren't ready for work just yet. Just looking for some insight.....I should probably do a search lol.

 

[Trenthany]

You're confusing live oaks. There are many more than quercus virginiana. Quercus fusiformis is a cold hardy version of quercus virginiana. It grows inland in drier, colder regions, on more alkaline soils from north Texas up into Oklahoma that get regular freezes in winter. It evolved to handle those conditions. Some live into really cold areas down to USDA zone 6a. Quercus Virginiana can't handle much less than USDA zone 7 and even in that zone (it grows along the coast here in Va. Zone 7) it is a scrub bush and not a "tree"...

While I've never found an article that says fusiformis requires a cold pause, I'd be very surprised, given 20 years of watching my own tree and its natural distribution that it doesn't. It's my speculation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus fusiformis

Makes sense I was thinking it was observation from warm winters vs cold since I couldn’t find anything.

 

[Johnathan]

I killed a live oak leaving it in the garage all winter. No sunlight. I have a post oak that survived our mild winter on the bench. Not sure I will leave it on the bench again tho.

Considering getting another live oak just wanted to see how you guys handle them. @markyscott I thought your Dallas winter would be similar to ours here in OKC, but I guess we do get a tad bit colder than yall lol

 

[markyscott]

I killed a live oak leaving it in the garage all winter. No sunlight. I have a post oak that survived our mild winter on the bench. Not sure I will leave it on the bench again tho.

Considering getting another live oak just wanted to see how you guys handle them. @markyscott I thought your Dallas winter would be similar to ours here in OKC, but I guess we do get a tad bit colder than yall lol

Hi Jonathan - I’m in Houston. Our climate is dominated by the gulf and is milder (cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter) and MUCH more humid than Dallas.

S

 

[Michael P]

Considering getting another live oak just wanted to see how you guys handle them. @markyscott I thought your Dallas winter would be similar to ours here in OKC, but I guess we do get a tad bit colder than yall lol

Houston is USDA zone 9. Dallas is zone 8. and OKC is at the very northern limit of zone 7. Q. virginiana is considered hardy only to zone 7. For bonsai and other plants in containers, it is prudent to subtract one zone of hardiness. So for bonsai purposes, you are in zone 6. For Q. virginiana you will need a cool greenhouse or possibly a cold frame.

 

[SWfloirda]

I would love some q. Fusiformis if it is smaller! Our only small oak in SW FL is scrub oaks and I’m working on some of those already! Lol Let me know what they would cost to ship and I’d love to buy some little ones to start training!

$25 at wigerts. North Fort Myers.

 

[Johnathan]

Hi Jonathan - I’m in Houston. Our climate is dominated by the gulf and is milder (cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter) and MUCH more humid than Dallas.

S

Awww man, my wife and I have been considering moving to Dallas, and I was so stoked I'd get a chance to ride in your Tesla! lol

I know all about Houston climate and Gulf Coast, I was born and raised in Louisiana. Actually have some family living in Houston since Hurricane Katrina.

Hope you guys are staying safe with the COVID spikes!

Houston is USDA zone 9. Dallas is zone 8. and OKC is at the very northern limit of zone 7. Q. virginiana is considered hardy only to zone 7. For bonsai and other plants in containers, it is prudent to subtract one zone of hardiness. So for bonsai purposes, you are in zone 6. For Q. virginiana you will need a cool greenhouse or possibly a cold frame.

This is definitely good to know. Maybe a small cold frame will be my next quarantine project whenever we shut down again!