Collected Wing Elm Clump

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
Yesterday the Dallas Bonsai Society had our annual club dig at one of the member's property. I was looking mainly for a clump so when I came across this, I knew I had to take it home.

(Sorry for the crappy picture)
20190217_140925.jpg
20190216_104218.jpg

While digging, I started noticing that it may not be an actual clump since the trucks were beginning to move independently. I finished digging it up and got it home in a burlap sack wrapped in a trash bag.
Today as I was reducing the stumps of tap roots and removing dirt, the dirt began coming loose and the trees were starting to separate.

20190217_120045.jpg20190217_120108.jpg I thought it'd be best to just pot them all up with some of the original dirt to keep them together as a clulp for now and backfilled with pumice and expanded shale while they recovered. Once it does and I have more roots to work with, I'll come back in to flatten the bottom and put it in a shallower grow box.
20190217_123807.jpg
20190217_123908.jpg
Not exactly sure where I'm heading with this yet but we'll see what kind of growth I get out of it this year and go from there.
 

Attachments

  • 20190216_104149.jpg
    20190216_104149.jpg
    304.1 KB · Views: 18
  • 20190216_104212.jpg
    20190216_104212.jpg
    276 KB · Views: 18
  • 20190217_120045.jpg
    20190217_120045.jpg
    198.1 KB · Views: 13
  • 20190217_123738.jpg
    20190217_123738.jpg
    186.3 KB · Views: 35

thumblessprimate1

Masterpiece
Messages
4,232
Reaction score
8,542
Location
DALLAS
Ya. I think the same as Zach; cut lower. I'd have put it in a wider pot too.

I once collected a clump similar to what you got. It's been sold now. Anyways, like you I learned not all of the trunks were connected. One of four turned out to just be as seedling that grew intertwined at the tap root. I placed a screw through it to the multi-trunk. I may have even threaded a small seedling to get a fifth trunk.

The way I see it is whatever comes loose, I'll get to rearrange to more ideal positions, and I might as well do it now than later.

That's my two cents ?
 

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
For what it's worth, those trunks are way too long. Unless your goal is a tall tree forest, but even then I think they'd be too tall.
I appreciate the input and I'm going to have to agree. I'm actually going for a smaller clump but I figured I'd let it recover before chopping lower. Would it be advisable to do it now? The buds haven't started swelling yet.

Ya. I think the same as Zach; cut lower. I'd have put it in a wider pot too.

I once collected a clump similar to what you got. It's been sold now. Anyways, like you I learned not all of the trunks were connected. One of four turned out to just be as seedling that grew intertwined at the tap root. I placed a screw through it to the multi-trunk. I may have even threaded a small seedling to get a fifth trunk.

The way I see it is whatever comes loose, I'll get to rearrange to more ideal positions, and I might as well do it now than later.

That's my two cents ?
Thanks Martin, it's my first collection so I appreciate any advice. I didn't think of using the fact that they're separate to my advantage. I'd liked them the way I found them so I was trying to preserve that but I guess few tweaks here and there would've been helpful. Next year I'll come in work on spacing and try to get them close enough to hopefully fuse at the base in the future.
 

Zach Smith

Omono
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
2,851
Location
St. Francisville, LA
USDA Zone
8
I appreciate the input and I'm going to have to agree. I'm actually going for a smaller clump but I figured I'd let it recover before chopping lower. Would it be advisable to do it now? The buds haven't started swelling yet.
If the tree hasn't been in the pot too long, go for it. Just be sure (as always) to seal the chops. Winged elm is easy to collect successfully, though an inferior elm species to Cedar elm, but they make nice bonsai nonetheless.
 

markyscott

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,112
Reaction score
21,381
Location
Delaplane VA
USDA Zone
6B
FWIW, Dallas is the very western edge of the native range of Winged Elm. They don’t grow in Fort Worth. Cedar Elm are far more common there and they’re often very difficult to tell from one another, particularly this time of year. Cedar Elm are even often called Winged Elm just to confuse the matter even more. One way to tell the difference now is that Cedar Elm lose their wings after about 5 years as the bark matures. So you should only see it on young seedlings.
I thought it'd be best to just pot them all up with some of the original dirt to keep them together as a clulp for now and backfilled with pumice and expanded shale while they recovered.

Did someone in the club advise you to keep the field soil? I ask because I always bare root cedar/winged elms when I collect and get rid of all the field soil. I even wash the roots down with a hose to make sure there’s zero mud clinging to the roots before potting it up. The way I figure it, you’re going to have to do it sooner or later and the tree is likely strong at collection - might as well do it right away rather than leave all the field soil around the roots. I’ve probably collected thirty or forty and I don’t remember having lost any. But perhaps leaving it is common practice in Dallas. I just bought a Cedar Elm clump that was originally collected there. When I repotted it, it was a real mess - a bunch of field soil was packed around the roots and the tap root had never been cut. I had to bare root the tree, cut the tap root, and remove all the huge encircling roots. It was a mess. Like starting over from square one, but years after the tree was collected.

S
 
Last edited:

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
I'd agree with everything above. Not good to keep ANY field soil on cedar, winged, American, at collection. Wash it ALL off. I would also NOT use pumice/shale for soil (ESPECIALLY if you've got field soil attached to the roots--Pumice/shale is going to dry very quickly, while the field soil will stay soggy...You'll be watering to keep the outside layer moist, while the interior stays soggy and kills roots...). I use plain old bonsai soil--with a bit of organic component.
 

thumblessprimate1

Masterpiece
Messages
4,232
Reaction score
8,542
Location
DALLAS
The Elms I've collected took a long while to wash off native clay soil. Great exercise doing collecting and cleaning and cutting all with hand tools ?. Not complaining though.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
If you're smart about it, you saw off the roots close enough to the trunk and you don't have to worry about washing off soil...also helps if you're digging the trees in sandier soils. All the cedar elms I've collected self-bare rooted themselves when I lifted them out of the sugar sand - soil they were in. But that was east of Dallas...
 

thumblessprimate1

Masterpiece
Messages
4,232
Reaction score
8,542
Location
DALLAS
If you're smart about it, you saw off the roots close enough to the trunk and you don't have to worry about washing off soil...also helps if you're digging the trees in sandier soils. All the cedar elms I've collected self-bare rooted themselves when I lifted them out of the sugar sand - soil they were in. But that was east of Dallas...
Where I'm at, they sit in clay. I didn't have a reciprocating saw yet. ? tough cutting through clay without that tool. Sandy is good!
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Where I'm at, they sit in clay. I didn't have a reciprocating saw yet. ? tough cutting through clay without that tool. Sandy is good!
When I first dug up cedar elms, I dug BIG trees using a dulled out brush saw from my parents workshed...Took hours and had to keep the cattle away while I was digging. Damn bovines kept trying to tip me into the hole...

Smarter collectors use reciprocating saws.:)
 

WesB

Mame
Messages
185
Reaction score
112
USDA Zone
7
They grow in clay here a lot. Finding one in decomposing granite is a relief. I just use a plain old wooden handle branch saw. I may buy a hatchet. I need to break down and get a chainsaw I guess lol. The issue with them for me is the tap root runs straight down 2-3 feet so you literally have to dig wide then saw underneath.
 

Attachments

  • 9B1BB2CC-A7B8-475F-B119-BD6460273B1A.jpeg
    9B1BB2CC-A7B8-475F-B119-BD6460273B1A.jpeg
    287.1 KB · Views: 29
  • 7EFC2040-E206-4990-99C9-70166A9DBB9C.jpeg
    7EFC2040-E206-4990-99C9-70166A9DBB9C.jpeg
    460.2 KB · Views: 30
  • 530415E8-D985-4C59-86CE-7EDC80A465CE.jpeg
    530415E8-D985-4C59-86CE-7EDC80A465CE.jpeg
    424.3 KB · Views: 42

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
FWIW, Dallas is the very western edge of the native range of Winged Elm. They don’t grow in Fort Worth. Cedar Elm are far more common there and they’re often very difficult to tell from one another, particularly this time of year. Cedar Elm are even often called Winged Elm just to confuse the matter even more. One way to tell the difference now is that Cedar Elm lose their wings after about 5 years as the bark matures. So you should only see it on young seedlings.


Did someone in the club advise you to keep the field soil? I ask because I always bare root cedar/winged elms when I collect and get rid of all the field soil. I even wash the roots down with a hose to make sure there’s zero mud clinging to the roots before potting it up. The way I figure it, you’re going to have to do it sooner or later and the tree is likely strong at collection - might as well do it right away rather than leave all the field soil around the roots. I’ve probably collected thirty or forty and I don’t remember having lost any. But perhaps leaving it is common practice in Dallas. I just bought a Cedar Elm clump that was originally collected there. When I repotted it, it was a real mess - a bunch of field soil was packed around the roots and the tap root had never been cut. I had to bare root the tree, cut the tap root, and remove all the huge encircling roots. It was a mess. Like starting over from square one, but years after the tree was collected.

S
Thanks for the info Scot- appreciated as always.
We actually drove about an hour and a half north of Dallas to Whitesboro so I don't know if that changes your opinion on if it's Winged or Cedar. Would you consider these as "young seedlings"? Because the trunks still have the wings on them, although smaller the lower you go.

I actually did have a few different people from the club recommend to leave the field soil in there while it recovers and this being my first collection, I wasn't too sure so I went ahead and left it. When I collected them, I was able to cut the tap root fairly short but if I wanted to go any lower, I was going to have to remove the soil, so I reduced them as much as I could. I'm planning on using large loppers to make the trunks smaller in the next few days, should I go ahead and remove it from the pot to wash the soil and repot it as well? Or is it too late since it's already stressed as is?

@rockm, thanks for the advice. I will definitely keep it in mind for next time. Like martin's, these were found in pure clay even though part of the property we were on did have some sandier soil in other areas. We had a reciprocating saw with us but luckily the trunks and roots were small enough that we were able to lop them off easily.
 

markyscott

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,112
Reaction score
21,381
Location
Delaplane VA
USDA Zone
6B
Thanks for the info Scot- appreciated as always.
We actually drove about an hour and a half north of Dallas to Whitesboro so I don't know if that changes your opinion on if it's Winged or Cedar. Would you consider these as "young seedlings"? Because the trunks still have the wings on them, although smaller the lower you go.

North of Dallas, pretty much draw a line at I35. There are almost no Winged Elm west of that line - all Cedar Elm. Close to that line you’re at the edge of their native range. Fewer and fewer winged elm and more and more cedar elm. In Whitesboro, I’d guess cedar is more likely, but you can’t rule out running into an occasional winged elm.

I actually did have a few different people from the club recommend to leave the field soil in there while it recovers and this being my first collection, I wasn't too sure so I went ahead and left it. When I collected them, I was able to cut the tap root fairly short but if I wanted to go any lower, I was going to have to remove the soil, so I reduced them as much as I could. I'm planning on using large loppers to make the trunks smaller in the next few days, should I go ahead and remove it from the pot to wash the soil and repot it as well? Or is it too late since it's already stressed as is?

How long ago did you you collect them?

- Scott
 

thumblessprimate1

Masterpiece
Messages
4,232
Reaction score
8,542
Location
DALLAS
North of Dallas, pretty much draw a line at I35. There are almost no Winged Elm west of that line - all Cedar Elm. Close to that line you’re at the edge of their native range. Fewer and fewer winged elm and more and more cedar elm. In Whitesboro, I’d guess cedar is more likely, but you can’t rule out running into an occasional winged elm.



How long ago did you you collect them?

- Scott
Scott, I have collected what I'm pretty sure is Winged Elm in Grand Prairie which is west of I-35 in Dallas. But I'll get to learn something new if I am wrong.
20190219_130119.jpg20190219_130151.jpg20190219_130109.jpg20190219_130103.jpg

Here's what I think is a Cedar Elm that I collected.
20190219_130223.jpg20190219_130217.jpg20190219_130229.jpg

Here is an Elm I that I think is Cedar Elm.
IMG_20190219_131452_209.jpg
 

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
North of Dallas, pretty much draw a line at I35. There are almost no Winged Elm west of that line - all Cedar Elm.
- Scott

The property we were at is still East of I-35 but I see what you mean. It's right at the edge of the terretory so who knows. We'll see if the wings it has now drop or stay on. It definitely doesn't look like the one Martin just posted though.

It was collected Saturday mid day and it was potted up the following morning. It has been fairly cold and cloudy since though. Only thing is that I'm going out of town today so the earliest I could work on it would be next week.
 

Michael P

Omono
Messages
1,206
Reaction score
1,840
Location
Dallas, Texas, AHS heat zone 9
USDA Zone
8a
Winged or Cedar? A question for the ages.

The winged characteristic is highly variable in both species depending on age, environment, and individual genetics. Habitat and soil type may help more. Whitesboro is at the extreme eastern edge of Grayson County, near the boundary between the Blackland Prairie and the Eastern Cross Timbers. Winged elm will be more common in Cross Timbers. What was the soil like? Sandy red-brown surface layer with stiff reddish clay below? Or gray clay on the surface with soft white rock below? Cross Timbers soils are often sandy with reddish clay below.

Where there any Post Oaks on the property? Post Oaks are an indicator plant for Cross Timbers.

But the easiest way to tell is after it grows leaves. If the mature leaves are dull with a very rough upper surface, it is Cedar Elm. If they are somewhat glossy with a smooth or slightly rough upper surface, it is Winged Elm. Winged Elm also has slightly larger and more pointed leaves, but this may be obscured by bonsai culture.
 

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
What was the soil like? Sandy red-brown surface layer with stiff reddish clay below? Or gray clay on the surface with soft white rock below? Cross Timbers soils are often sandy with reddish clay below.
Michael, from what I heard from the others who dug in other areas, the soil varied some depending on where on the property you were (it's huge). The area where I dug mine specifically was very much like your first description, it was sandy brown on top with stiff reddish clay below.

Where there any Post Oaks on the property? Post Oaks are an indicator plant for Cross Timbers.
There were definitely also Post Oaks everywhere on the property.

But the easiest way to tell is after it grows leaves. If the mature leaves are dull with a very rough upper surface, it is Cedar Elm. If they are somewhat glossy with a smooth or slightly rough upper surface, it is Winged Elm. Winged Elm also has slightly larger and more pointed leaves, but this may be obscured by bonsai culture.
I'll have to wait and see what the leaves look like when they come out! I'll be sure to update this thread.

From the information on the soil and Post Oaks, would you think it's a Winged Elm?
 

Michael P

Omono
Messages
1,206
Reaction score
1,840
Location
Dallas, Texas, AHS heat zone 9
USDA Zone
8a
We don't know yet. The property is definitely in the Cross Timbers, but both cedar and winged elm grow in that soil. If it was Blackland, the chance of finding winged elm would be smaller. How wet was the specific area where you found the tree? Was it in a flat area and/or near a creek? Or was it on a slope or the top of a hill? Winged elm prefers moist soil near creeks or in low areas.
 

Rodrigo

Shohin
Messages
403
Reaction score
524
Location
San Antonio, Texas
USDA Zone
8a
We don't know yet. The property is definitely in the Cross Timbers, but both cedar and winged elm grow in that soil. If it was Blackland, the chance of finding winged elm would be smaller. How wet was the specific area where you found the tree? Was it in a flat area and/or near a creek? Or was it on a slope or the top of a hill? Winged elm prefers moist soil near creeks or in low areas.
The whole property was pretty wet and had creeks and ponds all throughout it. Where I found it though was basically a small clearing next to a dirt road full of a bunch of this same type of elms.
There were a few people that dug near by that mentioned that as soon as they started digging, water started filling the hole so I guess the whole property is pretty moist
 
Top Bottom