Collecting during growing season

Woocash

Omono
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Cue many a forehead slap

Hi folks, I have been given permission to collect some (a load) of stumps of Blackthorn, Prunus Spinosa, that are part of an old laid hedge which is to be removed in the summer sometime up til October at the latest. I have no control over when this will happen so i’m going to try over various intervals until then to collect some of these death row diners.

The hedge is old, haggard and leggy so when they get dug they will end up as roots and a stump. No leaves, nuthin’.

Question 1. Do any of these (assuming for a decent rootball) stand a chance of survival?

Question 2. Why have you always got to be so damn negative? Hmm?

Question 3/4. Why not, or, What specifically is bad about the active growth stage for collecting? Chuck all the science you want at me here or just a load of hyperbole, if you prefer. It’s all interesting.

Question 5. Most importantly, what can be done to improve the chances of survival? I’m thinking amount of field soil kept, amount of shelter and shade, soaking roots for an extended period, watering regime thereafter, sweating in a bag etc.

Thanks.
 

A. Gorilla

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Late spring/early summer the winter root energy has put all its eggs in the basket of leaves.

Leaves are not re-depositing energy back into vascular tissue and roots til late summer.

So...cut all the leaves now, and the roots have little to give for more of them. Growth will be anemic for the rest of the year at BEST and the sugars which should be given back to the roots for winter protection will be far less than ideal.

Cut off all the roots now, and the leaves are not ready to grow more of them.

Its not pessimism, its the cycle of things.

Collect in late summer, keep leaves.

Collect in early spring so the compromised roots can start leaf growth from scratch at the pace they are able.

Plus, early spring there are no bugs or leafy obstacles all around you.

I have no shortage of failure anecdotes related to this.
 

A. Gorilla

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Improve survival by digging up as much feeder roots around as possible and keep the old clump of soil intact as well as the leaves. Trick it into thinking its not being collected. In theory.

It will be a big, heavy, dirty, pain in the ass with not-great odds.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Prunus spinosa - blackthorn - is a cool species. Go for it. I would start digging after the summer solstice. It will be far from ideal, but after the solstice the trunks will have "just barely" begun accumulating energy for next year (energy = sugars & starches). Dig a few every couple weeks, from July through September. The closer to September you get the higher your survival is likely to be. You have fairly mild winters, the blackthorn should survive.

I am not contradicting @A. Gorilla , but my summer collecting was not a total bust. I have had maybe 50 % of what I have collected in summer survive. I do have 80% to 90 % of my late winter, early spring collections survive. So definitely early spring is better, but middle or late summer will not be a complete bust.
 

A. Gorilla

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For reasons unrelated to bonsai, I used to dig up pinus strobus and balsam fir in mid June and recall no casualties, but I basically dug up a ball of intact dirt and shook none of it free. And there it stayed. Transplanted back into the ground whenever i got around to it. Just happened to be in a pot. Small trees too.

So...
 

Woocash

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Late spring/early summer the winter root energy has put all its eggs in the basket of leaves.

Leaves are not re-depositing energy back into vascular tissue and roots til late summer.

So...cut all the leaves now, and the roots have little to give for more of them. Growth will be anemic for the rest of the year at BEST and the sugars which should be given back to the roots for winter protection will be far less than ideal.

Cut off all the roots now, and the leaves are not ready to grow more of them.

Its not pessimism, its the cycle of things.

Collect in late summer, keep leaves.

Collect in early spring so the compromised roots can start leaf growth from scratch at the pace they are able.

Plus, early spring there are no bugs or leafy obstacles all around you.

I have no shortage of failure anecdotes related to this.
Improve survival by digging up as much feeder roots around as possible and keep the old clump of soil intact as well as the leaves. Trick it into thinking its not being collected. In theory.

It will be a big, heavy, dirty, pain in the ass with not-great odds.
Thanks for that. I know it’s not really pessimism, I just wanted some logic as to why it doesn’t work and how to maximise the chances. That does all make sense though. So I wonder, if I were to chop a few down low now to encourage them to leaf out down low, then collect in late summer, would they stand more of a chance?

My plan was to pretty much dig up a root ball and pot it in a large pot. Submerge for a week or two, Maybe poke some holes for water penetration. Put the pot in the morning sun, afternoon shade and hope for the best.
 

Woocash

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Prunus spinosa - blackthorn - is a cool species. Go for it. I would start digging after the summer solstice. It will be far from ideal, but after the solstice the trunks will have "just barely" begun accumulating energy for next year (energy = sugars & starches). Dig a few every couple weeks, from July through September. The closer to September you get the higher your survival is likely to be. You have fairly mild winters, the blackthorn should survive.

I am not contradicting @A. Gorilla , but my summer collecting was not a total bust. I have had maybe 50 % of what I have collected in summer survive. I do have 80% to 90 % of my late winter, early spring collections survive. So definitely early spring is better, but middle or late summer will not be a complete bust.
That’s good to know thanks Leo. It is a cool species and the bark on older plants takes on a really craggy, knobbly look so it’d be a shame to let the whole hedge go completely to waste. Plus, these are individual plants placed in a hedge at some point as opposed to root suckers emanating from a long dead parent. Much easier to collect a better root ball.

Your results are encouraging though. Did you do anything special to enhance the chances of survival? I will be offering winter protection for them too, but if winter is anything like last winter there’ll be no need at all!
 
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Try getting as many roots as you can, pot it, then put it in the ground for a few seasons right away. This works for me if trying a summer collection. When you are ready to "re-collect" it generally there will be plenty of roots and you can replace the field soil later.

It is still not as reliable as collecting in the early spring or early fall for me.
 

Woocash

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Try getting as many roots as you can, pot it, then put it in the ground for a few seasons right away. This works for me if trying a summer collection. When you are ready to "re-collect" it generally there will be plenty of roots and you can replace the field soil later.

It is still not as reliable as collecting in the early spring or early fall for me.
Oh yea good idea! Sounds obvious now you say that but i’ll give it a go. Full sun or a shady spot?
 

A. Gorilla

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>>So I wonder, if I were to chop a few down low now to encourage them to leaf out down low, then collect in late summer, would they stand more of a chance?

No.

That sounds like what happened to me last year in principle. 2 years ago I chopped a crabapple in winter. It regrew fine. In early summer a storm ripped through, and a big tree fell on the new growth. 90% of it ripped off. It had to totally regrow shortly after full leaf out.

Basically your idea right now.

Early spring 2019, I dug it up. It pushed leaves out a couple inches then fizzled and died.

Crabs are as close to invincible as it gets in my area. Weeds really. Unless...
 

leatherback

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So, without any reason to know why this would work but.. My plant would be, if not just digging them in one go once rains are expected for a bit..

If you are expecting a few weeks of good rain (hahahahaha, what was that again, rain?) go out and undercut the hedge. Force it to create a bunch of new feeders close to the trunk. You know you will never get the central roots so they should live. Then let them be till start of fall weather. Dig, prune, pot. Keep sheltered for spring. Watch them come to live in march. Never look back.
 

sorce

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Wonder if @Walter Pall works his through summer.

Before I was miseducated into believing spring was the "proper" time to collect, I didn't lose anything collected in summer.
It wasn't until I started digging in spring that I started losing things.

They'll be fine on your floating humidity tray!

Sorce
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Get a huge amount of synthetic auxins and shower them with it a few days before collection.
Shouldn't skip a beat.
 

Woocash

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So, without any reason to know why this would work but.. My plant would be, if not just digging them in one go once rains are expected for a bit..

If you are expecting a few weeks of good rain (hahahahaha, what was that again, rain?) go out and undercut the hedge. Force it to create a bunch of new feeders close to the trunk. You know you will never get the central roots so they should live. Then let them be till start of fall weather. Dig, prune, pot. Keep sheltered for spring. Watch them come to live in march. Never look back.
Ohhhhh so that’s how you do it. A la Wayne‘s World, “book them and they will come”. Got it!

It’s not a bad plan though, to be fair. If, like you say, we ever have any rain again before monsoon season in October through to February...
 

Woocash

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Wonder if @Walter Pall works his through summer.

Before I was miseducated into believing spring was the "proper" time to collect, I didn't lose anything collected in summer.
It wasn't until I started digging in spring that I started losing things.

They'll be fine on your floating humidity tray!

Sorce
Well I gotta give it a go at least. Never though of the boat as a humidity tray before, but it is pretty sticky around here when the wind’s not blowing!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Which ones and where do I get them?
Indole butyric acid as a potassium salt (IBA-K) and buy it online at a random plant laboratory supplier. I think there are a couple selling to non-business customers.
0.5 mg/L is a high concentration, so you don't need to buy much.
NAA as a salt with acetic acid (NAA-Ac) would work as well.
 

leatherback

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If, like you say, we ever have any rain again before monsoon season in October through to February...
I heard a rumour. We might get drops that reach the ground the next few days. Not enough to actually drip down from the roof but..
 
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