Collecting in America

[Graydon]

As always thanks for an interesting subject for discussion Will. Very thought provoking to say the least. As a card carrying member of several tree hugging associations and as a bonsai lover I am a bit torn on this subject.

I don't think we can draw a fair parallel of the plight of the shimpaku and other (over) harvested trees in Japan with what our fine country has to offer. As far as I know it was just the mountain juniper that were dug to extinction. I believe the JBP was extensively dug as was the JWP. Do those pines still exist in the wild in Japan? I guess I need more information on what happened in Japan (tree species, time periods et al) before I can continue on that point.

We have such a diverse amount of material here I find it kind of hard to believe that collection for the single use of bonsai could ever be as devastating as it was in Japan. We don't have nearly the demand that may have existed there, and our supply side is much greater simply based on the size of our country vs. Japan.

I could be way off, as I mentioned earlier I simply need to spend some tome researching the subject. Thanks for getting me thinking about this.

 

[Rose Mary]

Driving and drooling on hwy 101 N from Mendocino to Oregon

ahhh

I am on my way home to Oregon from jobs in Northern Ca this winter....so wanting to see my trees and get to work on them at home.

A beautiful drive up the coast 101 N in Northern Calif...(one of the fun things about having a 1982 Wanderlodge bluebird is you have time to take in some great scenery on pulls) and if there had been ample room to pull off the road with the bird and towed behind honda I would have been collecting!!!

There were so many places of prolific manzanita and live oak thrusting out of rock...I was a slobbering fool, I wanted some of those trees....
Unfortunately for me, it wasn't in an area easy to pull over out of the way...believe me 1 or 2 or 10 of these things being collected (properly of course) would not have been in the slightest noticeable.!! they are all over like thickets and considered a nuisance to most ranchers.

I'm having visions of cutting loose the honda and going back in the morning...ha!
Not really but I will remember next time and I do have a lot of good collecting spots in Oregon. Just not the live oak.

I also have a couple good finds from the backlot of nurseries (all packed into the tub and shower in case they have the inspection station open into Oregon....) of course these were certified nurseries but they said I still could get them confiscated if they were obvious and the station is open...
so...into the shower...
onward

so much to do
Regards.
Rose
headed home
SW Oregon

 

[Anonymous User]

believe me 1 or 2 or 10 of these things being collected (properly of course) would not have been in the slightest noticeable.!! they are all over like thickets and considered a nuisance to most ranchers.

And there we have it, need I say anything more?





Will

 

[rlist]

And there we have it, need I say anything more?
Will

No. You don't. Thank you. Next topic please.

 

[Vance Wood]

All snipping and carping aside let's look at collecting in America.

As I see it collecting takes on at least four different and distinct forms and practices. The first is how I first started, that of digging up a seedling found growing in the garden. This of course is not much better than growing from seed but it does happen, especially to a lot of beginners, many of which will post to a forum and ask advice as to what to do with their little treasure.

Second is that of going into the woods, parks and pastures and digging up something or other of questionable value that may not be much more than a three to five year old tree. Again, this too is the purview of many novice after reading posts like some that have occurred on the Internet, thinking that digging up a tree is the best way to get a bonsai. Little regard as to species, shape, or even time of year is taken;-- taken, is only the tree. In all honesty here it is possible to find some good stuff that has been browsed by wild animals and mowed over by state employees clearing easements to roads and the like.

Third is that of actual collecting of stunted or dwarfed trees from areas where the environment could be called harsh, difficult or even impossible. This is the purview of the advanced and experienced growers who have an idea of what to collect, when to collect it and where to find it. It is from this group you are more likely to find the possibilities of good bonsai being the outcome. It is also the most difficult and in some cases, dangerous method of collecting. It also demands a good deal of skill and knowledge of the types of situations these trees grow in and how best to remove them alive. Here is where you are likely to find some really old and interesting material.

The fourth is probably the most neglected but equally as fruitful as mountain trees in some circumstances. That is the urban Yamadori. Older cities have older homes with older and often over-grown landscape materials that can be negotiated out of the ground. It is sometimes possible that a home, or property owner will jump at the opportunity of having an old Juniper, Yew, Pine, Spruce or even Japanese Maple removed from their land for free. Some of these trees may have been in the ground sixty years or more and have developed some real character worthy of consideration as a bonsai.

All of the above have one thing in common: You must have permission to dig them if the do not occur on your own property.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What is the solution? I don't think there is a easy one but I do know it is up to us to protect this resource for ourselves as well as for our children. I also know that businesses that specialize in collecting hundreds of trees simply for resale should be licensed and also required to return at least seedlings to the ground.

Perhaps a program similar to hunting licenses, but for trees? For $xxx per year, you get a license to go out into public lands and collect a limited number of trees. When you leave the public land you have to register your tree with the authorities (forestry service or whatever). In this way the public trust can be informed about what species are being collected, from what areas, etc. Rare species could be removed from the collection list, or areas that are being over-harvested could be protected for a while to let stocks recover. The funds collected from the annual licensing would be used for habitat protection and for growing and replanting wild tree stocks.

FYI - at least in the case of California juniper - there are 1,000's of square miles of juniper out here. However the habitat where they grow is very extreme and I would guess that only a small percentage make it to the 50 year mark. Junipers in California are not being impacted by bonsai collectors - but by rampant residential development. I'll bet more junipers are killed in a single year from residential development than are collected by bonsai collectors in a century. Unlike with collectors, once open space is developed for residential, there is no opportunity to replant trees...

 

[Attila Soos]

Junipers in California are not being impacted by bonsai collectors - but by rampant residential development. I'll bet more junipers are killed in a single year from residential development than are collected by bonsai collectors in a century.

That's the problem. Where California junipers can live, human can also live. The next best thing for residential expansion, after the mild coastal areas, is the juniper country. The desert is the worst, so people will move to juniper country first, before moving into the desert.

So, although we still have tens of thousands of square miles of junipers, except the national parks and forest, they are all doomed to extinction. And it has nothing to do with bonsai. With thousands of new people pouring in DAILY, the only option for them to afford a house is juniper country. Junipers will disappear faster than we can count then. So, next time when you look at a wild juniper and ponder whether or not to take it or leave it for the next generations, think about this: in five years the whole hillside may be erased for one of those tract housing complexes, and thousands of junipers will be turned into woodchips. This is private land, and the owner will do anything to squeeze the most money out of it. The junipers are not in his calculations.

 

[Taylor Brown]

So are people saying I can't collect This is the one thing I really enjoy the most about bonsai. I will search with Dad sometimes for a month before I find something that is really good. It is a special feeling when I find just the right one. Now you telling me this is bad

 

[Vance Wood]

Just remember Taylor, everybody is just expressing their own opinions and opinions are like noses;--everybody has one and they all smell. Some worse than others. There is something more valuable than ancient trees, that's young people interested in doing bonsai, go where your heart tells you and you will make good bonsai.

 

[milehigh_7]

So are people saying I can't collect This is the one thing I really enjoy the most about bonsai. I will search with Dad sometimes for a month before I find something that is really good. It is a special feeling when I find just the right one. Now you telling me this is bad

Your post brings to mind several points:

First, how sweet is it that you have something that you two enjoy so much! Your father is indeed a lucky man that you enjoy time with him as much as you do. Also, he is lucky to be able to spend this kind of time with you. This is something that I hope you both treasure.

Second, the collecting as you describe sounds like it is most likely the right way to do it. When you state how much time you take searching, you show your dedication to and patience with bonsai.

Third, as a father of two boys about your age, I would be proud for my boys to write their thoughts as clearly and strongly as you have.

Nice Work,

 

[Asus101]

Hmm.

In Australia it is very hard to get permission to collect. Unless you know who to ask and what to say.
With this difficulty very few collect anything other thank introduced species like olive, radiata pine ect ect.

I have found the way to get permission, and I'm in the process of finishing the proposal. Thankfully, many artists here have tried to get permission, called the wrong people, gotten denied and moved on. This way I have had a much better chance at getting the permission.

The bad part is, there are very few people who have documented the collection process. To be honest i still think there is too little online resources on collection and after care for collected tree's. Granted there is more on actually collection process, but very little on after care, and species specific care. Do maples act the same as elms on collection? or the same as a scotts pine? Do I collect a Gum tree in the same season i do a juniper?
With the amount of collectors, the collector to documentation ratio is not very high. It maybe that I'm not apart of enough forums, or the fact there is so much information guarded by clubs that's deemed "for members only"?
What ever the reason information should be shared freely and openly.
Your not writing for a scientific journal, any sort of information on timing,technique and results is all that's needed to fill in questions.

Well here's to hoping this makes sense.

 

[Bill S]

Maybe not help for you Ausus, but for us in the Northern Eastern section of the US have a great book written by Nick Lenz, "Collecting Bonsai From The Wild" he goes into great detail on what it takes to collect and care for many different trees. For many in this area it's a treasure trove of info, and without his experiance in the collecting you can only try and see what happens.

More than likely someone with the experiance for your trees is willing to part with the info, it's the finding who, and getting them to put forth the effort to do a write up, which can be a large effort.

Good Hunting.

 

[Anonymous User]

So are people saying I can't collect This is the one thing I really enjoy the most about bonsai. I will search with Dad sometimes for a month before I find something that is really good. It is a special feeling when I find just the right one. Now you telling me this is bad

No, the main point being made is that people should collect responsibly and only with permission of the land owner. The sad thing is that is usually takes enforcement to assure responsibility, hence our game laws and other such public use laws.

Far too often people will justify doing the wrong thing, in collecting we here it often; it was dying, it was going to die anyhow, it was going to be cut down, nobody would miss it, there are so many, it would be happier with me, etc.

I love collecting, so much so that I want my children and their children to enjoy it as well.



Will


Only the foolish man complains about not having shade after he cuts down all the trees.

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

Will you touched on a main problem with todays society. The majority of people in this world are proper and are good people, but there are just a few rotten eggs that seem to muck things up for everyone else.

Without laws and restrictions there will be chaos.

 

[Anonymous User]

True, I can't control what other do for whatever reason, all I can do is control what I do and voice my opinions.

On a lighter note




Confessions Of A Tree Thief



Will

 

[Bill S]

Funny story will. You should be a writer.

 

[milehigh_7]

Yep Will I believe you have captured the true spirit of collecting! Well done and send my regards to "Bubba".