Collection

[limna]

Yesterday I was told that a tree must grow a good deal before you can work on it. But I'm left with the question: At what height/trunk are trees suited for collection?

 

[Jorgens86]

This one ir to tall but you can always cut back trunk

 

[limna]

This one ir to tall but you can always cut back trunk

So anything under about 3 ft?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Actually, the height of the tree is largely irrelevant. When I am collecting, here are a few things I look for.

1. Trunk caliper - the trunk needs to be at least 2 inches in diameter for the smallest of bonsai (under 8 inches). Since I prefer small to medium size trees, I look for trunks between 2 inches and 6 inches in diameter.

2. Interesting Trunk - The first 4 to 8 inches of trunk absolutely needs some feature of interest. Bends, twists, nice wide flaring base, anything of interest. If it looks like a telephone pole, I walk past it.

3, collectability - can it be dug up? If an interesting tree is wedged in the roots of a huge old tree, I'll take a pass. If it is in a rock crevice and has absolutely no wiggle, I'll take a pass. Usually if you try to wiggle the trunk back and forth, if there is some give, then the tree MIGHT be collectable. If there is abosolutely no give, it is probably rooted too deep or otherwise locked into position, and likely will not be collectable.

4. Notice so far I have not mentioned height at all. Because height does not matter, that is why a saw was invented. To get my 4 inch diameter tree, it is not unusual to have to dig up a 12 foot tall tree. You simply cut it off at the appropriate spot for the size bonsai you want. For one of the elms I collected, I cut a 12 foot tall tree down to 4 or 5 inches. That is all I needed. The stump back budded like crazy.

For some species you need low branches because some species will not back bud on bare wood. For example, in addition to items 1 & 2, for junipers you need branches low, down in the area of your desired final height. Tall trunks can be cut short, then carved into an interesting deadwood feature. But you must retain living green when you do the cut down. Pines, Spruce,, junipers & most conifers you absolutely must keep green needles low on your trunk, a bare trunk will become a dead trunk. For deciduous conifers like Bald CYpress and Metasequoia, you can cut them back to a stump and it will back bud, but larch will not back bud on old wood.

Most deciduous can be cut to a branchless stump when being collected. Most but not all. Beech is hit or miss if you take it to a bare stump.

So height of tree is not important. It is the diameter of the trunk that is important.

 

[BrianBay9]

To Leo's list I would add, is this a species that will be relatively easy to bonsai? Eastern red cedar is generally a pass. Trees with compound leaves - pass. Trees that don't bud back well, have naturally long internodes, don't respond to root work - pass.

 

[limna]

Actually, the height of the tree is largely irrelevant. When I am collecting, here are a few things I look for.

1. Trunk caliper - the trunk needs to be at least 2 inches in diameter for the smallest of bonsai (under 8 inches). Since I prefer small to medium size trees, I look for trunks between 2 inches and 6 inches in diameter.

2. Interesting Trunk - The first 4 to 8 inches of trunk absolutely needs some feature of interest. Bends, twists, nice wide flaring base, anything of interest. If it looks like a telephone pole, I walk past it.

3, collectability - can it be dug up? If an interesting tree is wedged in the roots of a huge old tree, I'll take a pass. If it is in a rock crevice and has absolutely no wiggle, I'll take a pass. Usually if you try to wiggle the trunk back and forth, if there is some give, then the tree MIGHT be collectable. If there is abosolutely no give, it is probably rooted too deep or otherwise locked into position, and likely will not be collectable.

4. Notice so far I have not mentioned height at all. Because height does not matter, that is why a saw was invented. To get my 4 inch diameter tree, it is not unusual to have to dig up a 12 foot tall tree. You simply cut it off at the appropriate spot for the size bonsai you want. For one of the elms I collected, I cut a 12 foot tall tree down to 4 or 5 inches. That is all I needed. The stump back budded like crazy.

For some species you need low branches because some species will not back bud on bare wood. For example, in addition to items 1 & 2, for junipers you need branches low, down in the area of your desired final height. Tall trunks can be cut short, then carved into an interesting deadwood feature. But you must retain living green when you do the cut down. Pines, Spruce,, junipers & most conifers you absolutely must keep green needles low on your trunk, a bare trunk will become a dead trunk. For deciduous conifers like Bald CYpress and Metasequoia, you can cut them back to a stump and it will back bud, but larch will not back bud on old wood.

Most deciduous can be cut to a branchless stump when being collected. Most but not all. Beech is hit or miss if you take it to a bare stump.

So height of tree is not important. It is the diameter of the trunk that is important.

Thank's for the input. But isn't creating deadwood on the apex a pretty specific look? It confuses me, because on another thread, I was told that you cannot chop a juniper because it doesn't heal right. Yet, many juniperus bonsai do not have jin on the apex. Do you carve the deadwood down enough until it isn't visible any more? Your thoughts?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thank's for the input. But isn't creating deadwood on the apex a pretty specific look? It confuses me, because on another thread, I was told that you cannot chop a juniper because it doesn't heal right. Yet, many juniperus bonsai do not have jin on the apex. Do you carve the deadwood down enough until it isn't visible any more? Your thoughts?

True, you do not chop junipers, because trunk or branch, they do not heal over the cut. Always leave a deadwood stub, carve the stub to be artistically pleasing. Length of "stub" is an artistic decision. Most initially leave a long to very long stub, carve it back as the design evolves. It is easy to shorten a deadwood feature, it is difficult to add length to a deadwood feature.
Yes, a deadwood feature is a "specific look" but a fairly common one for juniper. The junipers that you see without a deadwood apex were grown up to that size, or the bulk or girth was added to the trunk by having many branches. Many junipers do not have a single upright trunk, they are instead spreading bushes. The tree in your photo does have a single upright trunk, so you would probably have to go with the deadwood apex, at least initially.

Key is, when selecting a tree to dig, you need the trunk to be close to the finished diameter you envision the final tree needing. Height will vary by species as to what is needed to get that diameter.

This list of criteria, means that usually no more than 1 in 100 trees you see out there are good candidates for bonsai. Now that I have some experience collecting, I walk past a lot of trees that 10 or 20 years ago I would have been all excited to be digging up.

There are those, and occasionally I myself am guilty of this, where we do dig up younger trees, because we know they are flexible enough that we can still wire in or prune in movement and interest into the trunk. It may mean an extra 10 years in development, but we can play "build a tree", where we add each segment, one segment at a time. This is especially true of deciduous material. More difficult to do with conifers.

 

[sorce]

, I was told that you cannot chop a juniper because it doesn't heal right.

This is rather BS IMO.

Its freaking Deciduous trees that don't heal well after chops.
That why You see all these carved joints with gaping holes.

You can heal a hole on a juniper if you want to. I suck at them and can see it is possible if one cared to.

It's not cause it's impossible, it's cuz we prize the Deadwood.

@limna this is by no means to say don't listen to Leo, do, he is a horticulture genious!

I am more upset with this, "can't chop because it doesn't heal right"....
Because, if it needs to be chopped, it doesn't even matter if it heals right! So what info have they left you with? None.

I believe that is a common juniper, not erc.

Sorce

 

[limna]

This is rather BS IMO.

Its freaking Deciduous trees that don't heal well after chops.
That why You see all these carved joints with gaping holes.

You can heal a hole on a juniper if you want to. I suck at them and can see it is possible if one cared to.

It's not cause it's impossible, it's cuz we prize the Deadwood.

@limna this is by no means to say don't listen to Leo, do, he is a horticulture genious!

I am more upset with this, "can't chop because it doesn't heal right"....
Because, if it needs to be chopped, it doesn't even matter if it heals right! So what info have they left you with? None.

I believe that is a common juniper, not erc.

Sorce

I don't know there are a lot of these types of trees around which look to be the same species within close proximity which have grown to like 40-50 ft. which doesn't seem like a common juniper to me. I can take a picture, say, tomorrow if you want to take a look.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@limna
Your tree does appear to be an eastern red cedar, Juniperus virginiana. But the photo is not a close up, I could be wrong.

Yes ERC is a species that many recommend walking away from, it is difficult to bonsai. ERC is also prone to getting cedar-apple rust. If you want a good juniper to work with, seek out a Shimpaku juniper, Juniperus chinensis, The varieties Shimpaku, and 'Itoigawa' and 'Kishu' are the absolute best for creating bonsai. They are not too expensive to pick up from nurseries.

 

[limna]

@limna
Your tree does appear to be an eastern red cedar, Juniperus virginiana. But the photo is not a close up, I could be wrong.

Yes ERC is a species that many recommend walking away from, it is difficult to bonsai. ERC is also prone to getting cedar-apple rust. If you want a good juniper to work with, seek out a Shimpaku juniper, Juniperus chinensis, The varieties Shimpaku, and 'Itoigawa' and 'Kishu' are the absolute best for creating bonsai. They are not too expensive to pick up from nurseries.

I may have to resort to purchasing from a local nursery for now.. Although I'd rather get them for free. Hopefully later in the spring I'll be able to scout out some deciduous specimens out in the field, as the only evergreens around are less than optimal, apparently.

 

[just.wing.it]

Yeah, leave the ERC alone and call this thread a learning experience.
Where on the planet are you? Sorry if I missed it....

 

[limna]

Yeah, leave the ERC alone and call this thread a learning experience.
Where on the planet are you? Sorry if I missed it....

Southeastern Iowa

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You can under user profile, edit your profile to add your location. Most of us have something in there. And southeatern Iowa is "close enough" for climate advice.