Colorado Blue Spruce No. 2

[littletreefarmer]

Did you see the inspiration photo for the direction of this tree?

Post in thread 'Colorado Blue Spruce No. 2'

Jul 9, 2023

In the fall I want to style this tree it has a good defining branch that will be bent carefully with raffia etc , a middle branch and an apex.. lots of buds as I’ve stated before but this spruce serves a wonderful inspiration for this style of Colorado blue spruce

• Shogun610

• 

Yeah, I don't just browse latest comments, and reply to start something. There are tons of trees with overwhelming tenjin that work, and tons that don't. I think when you try to replicate a Kimura tree, you're swinging for the moon.. That tree is also an Ezo Spruce, huge difference and advantage there; the foliage is completely different.. Just because we enjoy the pretty color of blue spruce, does not exactly make it comparable in the same ways.

Why do you think It distracts , do you not see the tree as entire composition , why do you feel like the only focal point should be foliage ? Additionally did this tree design it’s like reducing a massive fin on a juniper , would you do that if you felt it took away from the foliage or too distracting ? Or do you accept it as part of the trees identity… which is why I’m going to refine the tenjin but not reduce height .. it’s part of the trees identity. Look at Mirai Norwal tree.

Should we get started on all of the additional design features the inspiration photo has to better incorporate and tell a story about that massive tenjin, or would we rather ignore them? The deadwood features begin at the soil line, continue to be incorporated and intertwined within the foliage mass, and then fly off into the heavens. The live vein also is barely visible and very thin from the frontal view, and the "trunk" where it builds itself off from the tenjin has nearly as much girth as the base of the tenjin; it tells a story of long-time survival and yet elegance.

Your example, at it's current state, looks like you simply killed the apex and ran with it, and the only way to know otherwise is past photos. I do think that with more refined wiring, foliage reduction and refinement, creating more deadwood interplay, a smaller more rustic container, and refinement (thinning and carving, or shortening) of the tenjin your tree can look very elegant and nice. But you need to be trying to work with what you have to attain your inspiration, not simply try to copy it with different material.

To answer your question, the focal point is not the foliage, nor did I ever say it was. The foliage should, however be a major part of the composition and assist with the overall story/aesthetic of the tree. We use foliage on junipers to "frame" the parts we want to show off and draw the eye to. We keep deadwood to show an interplay between the live and dead, and tell a story. What are you trying to accomplish with your foliage placement? I think the proportions are all a bit off, honestly, but that's just my opinion. I'm simply trying to create some real, detailed, creative discourse. I hope you enjoy the further refinement and journey with your tree!

 

[littletreefarmer]

This is a HUGE feature, not to be underestimated..

 

[Shogun610]

View attachment 604190
This is a HUGE feature, not to be underestimated..

Yeah, I don't just browse latest comments, and reply to start something. There are tons of trees with overwhelming tenjin that work, and tons that don't. I think when you try to replicate a Kimura tree, you're swinging for the moon.. That tree is also an Ezo Spruce, huge difference and advantage there; the foliage is completely different.. Just because we enjoy the pretty color of blue spruce, does not exactly make it comparable in the same ways.

Should we get started on all of the additional design features the inspiration photo has to better incorporate and tell a story about that massive tenjin, or would we rather ignore them? The deadwood features begin at the soil line, continue to be incorporated and intertwined within the foliage mass, and then fly off into the heavens. The live vein also is barely visible and very thin from the frontal view, and the "trunk" where it builds itself off from the tenjin has nearly as much girth as the base of the tenjin; it tells a story of long-time survival and yet elegance.

Your example, at it's current state, looks like you simply killed the apex and ran with it, and the only way to know otherwise is past photos. I do think that with more refined wiring, foliage reduction and refinement, creating more deadwood interplay, a smaller more rustic container, and refinement (thinning and carving, or shortening) of the tenjin your tree can look very elegant and nice. But you need to be trying to work with what you have to attain your inspiration, not simply try to copy it with different material.

To answer your question, the focal point is not the foliage, nor did I ever say it was. The foliage should, however be a major part of the composition and assist with the overall story/aesthetic of the tree. We use foliage on junipers to "frame" the parts we want to show off and draw the eye to. We keep deadwood to show an interplay between the live and dead, and tell a story. What are you trying to accomplish with your foliage placement? I think the proportions are all a bit off, honestly, but that's just my opinion. I'm simply trying to create some real, detailed, creative discourse. I hope you enjoy the further refinement and journey with your tree!

Just for future feedback on how you provide critique — your response blends useful critique with a tone that suggests superiority and a lack of respect for my creativity or bonsai knowledge fundamentals and training . It comes off as more of a performance of bonsai authority than a true dialogue.
Anyway , speak to your main useful points: this tree wasn’t created as a replica of the Kimura composition, but as a personal interpretation ,particularly the dramatic vertical tenjin and the stark tension . I’m not aiming to mimic the exact elements or proportions, but rather to explore a similar feeling through my own material and choices.understand your view on the tenjin’s height and refinement, but I’ve chosen to keep it tall and bold for now. I am aware that this is a Colorado blue spruce … It’s obviously not in its final container and may even change the angle slightly to how it was initially in its collection container by not sure I may do that.. and that the foliage will reduce over time, you can’t just create a final design and reduce the foliage over night my dog, the pad and apex refinement will come … also I plan on refining the deadwood but also it was just repotted this spring , any vibrations I’m sure you’re aware will disrupt root growth. This is a progression thread for this tree . You're absolutely right that there’s still work to do — foliage refinement, deadwood interplay, wiring — and those are all things I’m actively working on. My goal isn’t to copy a Kimura’s tree, but to internalize some of that design language while developing my own. The design proof concept for this tree is obviously existing in nature , from a dead tree resprouts a new life , one that could have been struck by lightning or borers etc, yet still survives , the foliage also suggest more mature level of that new regrown , as if rain and snow are compacting it down .

 

[shohin_branches]

Yeah, I don't just browse latest comments, and reply to start something. There are tons of trees with overwhelming tenjin that work, and tons that don't. I think when you try to replicate a Kimura tree, you're swinging for the moon.. That tree is also an Ezo Spruce, huge difference and advantage there; the foliage is completely different.. Just because we enjoy the pretty color of blue spruce, does not exactly make it comparable in the same ways.

Should we get started on all of the additional design features the inspiration photo has to better incorporate and tell a story about that massive tenjin, or would we rather ignore them? The deadwood features begin at the soil line, continue to be incorporated and intertwined within the foliage mass, and then fly off into the heavens. The live vein also is barely visible and very thin from the frontal view, and the "trunk" where it builds itself off from the tenjin has nearly as much girth as the base of the tenjin; it tells a story of long-time survival and yet elegance.

Your example, at it's current state, looks like you simply killed the apex and ran with it, and the only way to know otherwise is past photos. I do think that with more refined wiring, foliage reduction and refinement, creating more deadwood interplay, a smaller more rustic container, and refinement (thinning and carving, or shortening) of the tenjin your tree can look very elegant and nice. But you need to be trying to work with what you have to attain your inspiration, not simply try to copy it with different material.

To answer your question, the focal point is not the foliage, nor did I ever say it was. The foliage should, however be a major part of the composition and assist with the overall story/aesthetic of the tree. We use foliage on junipers to "frame" the parts we want to show off and draw the eye to. We keep deadwood to show an interplay between the live and dead, and tell a story. What are you trying to accomplish with your foliage placement? I think the proportions are all a bit off, honestly, but that's just my opinion. I'm simply trying to create some real, detailed, creative discourse. I hope you enjoy the further refinement and journey with your tree!

Yikes dude. Time to re-center. We are not here to shit on each other's trees and tear each other down. Give a suggestion and move along. The owner of the tree is allowed to take it or leave it. This is also a progression thread and you're expecting perfection immediately which is wildly unrealistic in bonsai which is a hobby of years.

 

[littletreefarmer]

lol.. I didn't think I was "shitting on" anything.. Or taking a "tone of superiority." I apologize for the unintended offence. I don't get why everyone complains about lack of discourse, etc then takes so much offence and gets defensive when they get any real discourse. This site is exactly the same vibe as Reddit and I assume FB as well. Almost every interaction I have had on this site over the years has come across as offensive in some way initially but I've chosen to not read into those emotions. I believe BNut said it himself somewhere, "It's best to assume a tone of neutrality, if not positivity in online interactions." If you believe I was trying to offend, that's on you I suppose, but I apologize.

I understand this is in-progress, and I even commented on potential next steps and said it will still be a nice tree..

If we don't want to recognize and appreciate the differences in our trees, and tell ourselves we are making Kimura trees, what are we doing here? I'll see my way back out, disregard. Good luck; enjoy the journey!

 

[Shogun610]

@littletreefarmer I do appreciate the discourse so that was not meant to discourage as I want that as well , it just imo came off as if I did not take into consideration’s that I’m not trying to make a exact replica but just inspiration and design and creating the feel of a new tree growing from a deadwood spire. I was not taking too much offense of your feedback, but just a bit more faith and respect. I will reduce the deadwood not height but carving down to make more elegant. And the foliage will not or may reduce slightly in terms of the extension of the lower branches.

 

[littletreefarmer]

@littletreefarmer I do appreciate the discourse so that was not meant to discourage as I want that as well , it just imo came off as if I did not take into consideration’s that I’m not trying to make a exact replica but just inspiration and design and creating the feel of a new tree growing from a deadwood spire. I was not taking too much offense of your feedback, but just a bit more faith and respect. I will reduce the deadwood not height but carving down to make more elegant. And the foliage will not or may reduce slightly in terms of the extension of the lower branches.

Hey man, all good on my end. I think I've said before on one of my own threads that I really do respect and appreciate your work. I'm never trying to be offensive, although I understand sometimes I definitely have an overly critical eye. I think we are all mostly here for the same purpose: to elevate the art and craftsmanship of our bonsai.

I was just trying to point out noticeable differences between your tree and the tree Kimura styled, and maybe be able to make sense of why the tenjin appears different in that context. Aesthetics is the study of understanding the nature of artistic beauty, and I just really enjoy getting into the weeds with people who want to talk about these things and attempt to make some sense of the nuance. I was genuinely excited to reply to you and talk about some differences between the two examples, and was taken off guard by some negative feedback to that.

Like I said, I really do respect the work you've shown on this site and I appreciate your love and respect for your trees. I know how many long hours go into the thoughts and actions of working on the trees we love, and I'll never purposefully disrespect that to anyone. Always down to talk more, but I'll try to be more mindful of tone for sure!