B.uneasy
Chumono
cut a decent amount off
Colorado Blue Spruce
- Thread starter B.uneasy
- Start date
Yes you did. Did you cut back to where there are buds?
B.uneasy
Chumono
I cut back to most of the buds but alot of the branches didn't have buds so I cut them back farther. Some branches I cut past the bud :/ Thats bad for the tree?
You should cut back to a bud. If you just cut back into needles, the section between the end, where you cut, will die back to the nearest bud back towards the trunk. If you cut off an entire branch, that’s fine. It’s the buds that signal the tree to send nutrients out. Cut off all the buds, there’s no signal, the branch dies.
CBS make lots of buds, so there’s usually lots of places to cut back to. It’s just not done “randomly”.
When they cut back to shape Christmas trees, they just shear them. So, even if you didn’t cut at ideal places, the tree will recover, but for bonsai, we generally try to be more selective.
CBS make lots of buds, so there’s usually lots of places to cut back to. It’s just not done “randomly”.
When they cut back to shape Christmas trees, they just shear them. So, even if you didn’t cut at ideal places, the tree will recover, but for bonsai, we generally try to be more selective.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Wrong. The branches are all too skinny to be useful, and you still have too many branches. You should have it thinned out to a spiral staircase of branches, leaving all the branches left on the tree with as much foliage as possible. Then, wire everything into the architecture you want and let grow for at least the balance of the first year. Thereafter, manage the pads to grow thick and shapely to your taste and keep needles as close-in to the trunk as will be necessary when the day comes that you want to actually reduce the foliage (and tree) to a bonsai size which will reduce the rate of growth to a minimum. Instead, you have made a Christmas tree. A smaller one than you bought.
hemi71cuda
Sapling
Leo in N E Illinois
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@B.uneasy
I find Colorado blue spruce to be interesting, they take a lot of abuse, if you don't abuse them too often. I have 3 CBS, and several other spruces. For your CBS I would recommend now that you leave it alone the rest of this year. Because you pruned it relatively hard, do not repot in less than 12 months from now. Give it time to grow. You want to see "blue shiners" the bright new blue buds growing on most of your branches before you do a repot.
Spruce do not "like" their roots being pruned or disturbed. So the year I repot I always do nothing major for 6 months before and zero pruning or other work for 12 months after. Just water and feed. Now there are plenty of people who will tell you that you can be much more aggressive with them, and that is fine, for them. I found they do best for me if I leave them alone for a good length of time between major pruning or repotting sessions. Especially repotting. When you do your repotting, work the roots hard, to get the to the right shape for a future bonsai pot. Don't be timid working the roots. FOr the spruce pictured below, in 2014 I removed 75% of its root system, potted it into at mostly pumice mix in the Anderson flat. Then I had to leave it alone for 4 years before I had enough "blue shiners", active buds to tell me it had recovered. If new buds are sparse, leave it alone to recover another year. Usually one year is enough, but in my case, where I removed more than the recommended amount, it took 4 years before the spruce recovered. So if yours does not have many buds on the branches, let it go another year. Just water and fertilizer and full sun.
One more thing, this actually can apply to any tree. If a tree is not interesting, pruning it back, like you did, and maybe getting rid of the most boring parts, is a good start. Then set it aside and let it grow anywhere from 2 to 5 or more years. The extended grow out time will allow it to grow new buds and branches, and perhaps give you more interesting choices. If after another 5 years it is still boring, abuse it again, prune it hard, get rid of straight branches, and then set it out to grow out again.
My example here is not anywhere's near bonsai yet, it is barely even "pre-bonsai" it is in early phases of "becoming bonsai". My hope is to get back budding on those long stretches of straight branches. More sun, more fertilizer should help. If I don't get buds where I want them in the next 5 years, I will either resort to grafting or plant it in the landscape.
Colorado Blue spruce, in June 2019, waiting for back buds to come after initial styling, styled originally in 2018
immediately after being wired out in 2018.
I find Colorado blue spruce to be interesting, they take a lot of abuse, if you don't abuse them too often. I have 3 CBS, and several other spruces. For your CBS I would recommend now that you leave it alone the rest of this year. Because you pruned it relatively hard, do not repot in less than 12 months from now. Give it time to grow. You want to see "blue shiners" the bright new blue buds growing on most of your branches before you do a repot.
Spruce do not "like" their roots being pruned or disturbed. So the year I repot I always do nothing major for 6 months before and zero pruning or other work for 12 months after. Just water and feed. Now there are plenty of people who will tell you that you can be much more aggressive with them, and that is fine, for them. I found they do best for me if I leave them alone for a good length of time between major pruning or repotting sessions. Especially repotting. When you do your repotting, work the roots hard, to get the to the right shape for a future bonsai pot. Don't be timid working the roots. FOr the spruce pictured below, in 2014 I removed 75% of its root system, potted it into at mostly pumice mix in the Anderson flat. Then I had to leave it alone for 4 years before I had enough "blue shiners", active buds to tell me it had recovered. If new buds are sparse, leave it alone to recover another year. Usually one year is enough, but in my case, where I removed more than the recommended amount, it took 4 years before the spruce recovered. So if yours does not have many buds on the branches, let it go another year. Just water and fertilizer and full sun.
One more thing, this actually can apply to any tree. If a tree is not interesting, pruning it back, like you did, and maybe getting rid of the most boring parts, is a good start. Then set it aside and let it grow anywhere from 2 to 5 or more years. The extended grow out time will allow it to grow new buds and branches, and perhaps give you more interesting choices. If after another 5 years it is still boring, abuse it again, prune it hard, get rid of straight branches, and then set it out to grow out again.
My example here is not anywhere's near bonsai yet, it is barely even "pre-bonsai" it is in early phases of "becoming bonsai". My hope is to get back budding on those long stretches of straight branches. More sun, more fertilizer should help. If I don't get buds where I want them in the next 5 years, I will either resort to grafting or plant it in the landscape.
Colorado Blue spruce, in June 2019, waiting for back buds to come after initial styling, styled originally in 2018
immediately after being wired out in 2018.
Lazylightningny
Masterpiece
I've seen this video. Does he have an update? Any idea what he did with the roots?
B.uneasy
Chumono
Pretty sure he sold that tree!
B.uneasy
Chumono
That was the most helpful informational video I have seen!! Thank you so much, I watched the whole thing and this helped me out a lot understanding the process of taking a traditional christmas tree and the creative practices that follow
B.uneasy
Chumono
I love the character on this tree, It's already got such a nice trunk, that big curve is such a score!
B.uneasy
Chumono
What size pot/container should I move this tree into? Does anyone have any preferences for a bulky tree like this? I think this may beable to get repotted without to many problems. Buds are plentiful all over the tree. And if possible it would be nice to know what amounts of what different kind of soil I would need to fill the container the tree will be in.
Leo in N E Illinois
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What size container?
All depends on what you want to do. If you want the tree to grow, you need to move it to a container that holds more potting media.
Now before you reach for a traditional nursery pot or container, consider this. Most, the vast majority, of "off the shelf" ready made bonsai pots have an inside depth of 4 inches (10 cm) or less. Most have interior depths of only 3 inches or less. SO to eventually get your CBS into a traditional bonsai pot, eventually you are going to have to develop a wide flat root system. I like using Anderson flats. The flat my CBS is in is 16 x 16 x 5 inches. It holds about the same volume as a 3 or 4 gallon nursery pot. I usually only fill the Anderson flat to 3 or 4 inches, but if you fill it all the way up it holds about 4 gallons. So if you current pot is a 3 gallon nursery pot, move it to a container with similar dimensions to an Anderson flat. You can buy Anderson flats or build your own. Some make wooden grow boxes.
If you are happy with the tree, and want to slow down development, stop the increase in diameter of your trunk, then putting the CBS into a pot that holds a smaller volume of media will definitely slow it down.
SO pot size is up to you. Want growth? Go larger volume but a shallower container. Want to stop growth? go to a smaller pot, or a bonsai pot.
All depends on what you want to do. If you want the tree to grow, you need to move it to a container that holds more potting media.
Now before you reach for a traditional nursery pot or container, consider this. Most, the vast majority, of "off the shelf" ready made bonsai pots have an inside depth of 4 inches (10 cm) or less. Most have interior depths of only 3 inches or less. SO to eventually get your CBS into a traditional bonsai pot, eventually you are going to have to develop a wide flat root system. I like using Anderson flats. The flat my CBS is in is 16 x 16 x 5 inches. It holds about the same volume as a 3 or 4 gallon nursery pot. I usually only fill the Anderson flat to 3 or 4 inches, but if you fill it all the way up it holds about 4 gallons. So if you current pot is a 3 gallon nursery pot, move it to a container with similar dimensions to an Anderson flat. You can buy Anderson flats or build your own. Some make wooden grow boxes.
If you are happy with the tree, and want to slow down development, stop the increase in diameter of your trunk, then putting the CBS into a pot that holds a smaller volume of media will definitely slow it down.
SO pot size is up to you. Want growth? Go larger volume but a shallower container. Want to stop growth? go to a smaller pot, or a bonsai pot.
B.uneasy
Chumono
Now I'm really wondering. How do you guys reduce the size of the needles?
River's Edge
Masterpiece
This comment makes me think a repotting class or lesson from a local club member would be in order. The goal is to retain and improve the finer root structure, Reducing thicker roots as we go!
Leo in N E Illinois
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Colorado Blue Spruce, and pretty much all spruce, genus Picea. There are no techniques specifically to reduce needle size. The size of the needles reduces naturally with ramification of the branches. Ramification is the branching of the branching. So if your branch, goes for a length, then branches into 2 branches. This is one level of ramification. If the branch, extends then branches into 2, then those branches extend and branch into 2 each, yielding 4 branches. This is 2 levels of ramification. If the 4, branch again, this becomes 8 branches, or 3 levels of ramification. At 4 levels of ramification, there will be 16 branches, and 5 will be 32 branches. The water and nutrients coming up from the trunk are the same, so as levels of ramification increase, the distribution of water and nutrients gets divided to smaller and smaller allocations for each branch. The more levels of ramification you have the smaller your needles will become. This is assuming you keep the pot size, hence the size of the root ball roughly constant. If you allow the roots to spread out at the same rate the branching spreads out, then the needles will stay large.
So for Picea, spruce, the main way to develop shorter needles is to develop more and more branching. The finer your branching becomes, the shorter your needles will become.
Make sense? Needle size comes down when the root system is restricted and the tree is forced to make more and more, finer and finer branches.
B.uneasy
Chumono
Amazing Explanation
B.uneasy
Chumono
For now, this is the last question I have. Trust me, there will be many more to come! How do I thin the tree out enough to really decide what branches I want to keep, and all of the ones I want to take off. The trees just so thick with branches. I there any specific rules on branching at this point?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I don't think you have anything currently that will be a branch in the future. More, parts to build trunk. There may be a bud that will be a future branch, but it is more likely that the branches off of those branches will be your final branching.
If you understand the 32 parts of ramification, you understand the size of this needle may in fact be small enough to represent a needle on a trunk so small.
The problem is, that size trunk can't hold the volume which is 32 parts of ramification.
So you're basically building trunk by default for this reason. It needs to be larger.
Build a wise trunk to hold that ramification.
Sorce
B.uneasy
Chumono
I realize the tree will change alot over the next few years, and big changes will be made. But as of right now, how should I make it not look like a sad little christmas tree? I want it to start looking like a decent little piece of material, that may be far away from being a bonsai, but still not a garden shrub. You know?
