Commercial Japanese Black Pine Field Growing - Investment

RobertB

Chumono
Messages
736
Reaction score
708
Location
Fairhope AL
USDA Zone
8
While I have been reading up on black pines a lot and trying to learn as much as I can soak up, I've been noticing how high (staggering) decent material sells for. I've seen some pretty good sell prices on ebay, facebook, etc for what appears to me as decent material. It makes me think I need to load up about an acre somewhere of Black Pines, or even a half acre as a retirement fund. Maybe even throw in some shimpakus and Japanese maples of different cultivars.

Of coarse, I haven't grown these yet, so I really don't understand the amount of work that goes into growing the Japanese black pine, especially in a large operation (how much time would be required for pruning, the bugs, the disease, etc). I do see a lot of photos of nursery's in Japan and that's just about all I can see is fields of black pines. It makes sense to me that there would be large fields of black pines as they are demanding pretty high prices right now and probably have for some time. Will they still in 20 yrs?? Who knows...

Has anyone else thought about this. Seams like a decent retirement plan. I am only 35, so if I could do this with minimal investment, and in 15-20 yrs have 1000 ish black pine with half decent ramification and two to 3 inch twisted up trunks, I could get maybe 500$ + per on these. Seems like there is something I am missing here or maybe we all just need to start fields of black pines to get rich...$$$ haha

Obviously, guys like at evergreengardenworks grow cultivars from cuttings. Shoot, even doing this. Go to Japan, purchase 10 nice trees to take cuttings from and go from there.

Just some crazy idea floating around in my head late at night.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Perhaps a test zone of say 10 x 10 feet.

The seeds are very variable as growing and thickening of trunk speed is
concerned.
Additionally, quality of the bark or even needles [ there is a naturally 1" long needle ]

Market research on folk actually willing to buy pines at different stages of
development.
There is already I believe Telperion Farms and Mr. Walston supplying pines.

I would suggest if you could, get the 1 inch needles ------- see if they are that
convenient and see how easy to grow.

Always remember in business --------- if something is too easy to duplicate,
it will fail as a business.
Best of learning and luck.
Anthony
 

R3x

Shohin
Messages
330
Reaction score
582
Location
Slovakia, Central Europe
USDA Zone
8?
Might be a good plan if you overcome few obstacles like proper technique (pruning, getting taper and ramification), keeping health, ... I recently saw a video of bonsai demonstration where the demonstrator (can't remember the name) told one big truth: with buying trees (bonsai or pre-bonsai) from Japan you basically buy time someone spent caring for the tree (in this context I would add knowledge as well). So in this regard you'd be investing your time in hoping to monetize it later ;-)

Heed the advice from Anthony. If you do not (yet?) posses the skill try starting smaller. That would answers the "easy to duplicate" part. Still there's time needed as well.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
While I have been reading up on black pines a lot and trying to learn as much as I can soak up, I've been noticing how high (staggering) decent material sells for. I've seen some pretty good sell prices on ebay, facebook, etc for what appears to me as decent material. It makes me think I need to load up about an acre somewhere of Black Pines, or even a half acre as a retirement fund. Maybe even throw in some shimpakus and Japanese maples of different cultivars.

Of coarse, I haven't grown these yet, so I really don't understand the amount of work that goes into growing the Japanese black pine, especially in a large operation (how much time would be required for pruning, the bugs, the disease, etc). I do see a lot of photos of nursery's in Japan and that's just about all I can see is fields of black pines. It makes sense to me that there would be large fields of black pines as they are demanding pretty high prices right now and probably have for some time. Will they still in 20 yrs?? Who knows...

Has anyone else thought about this. Seams like a decent retirement plan. I am only 35, so if I could do this with minimal investment, and in 15-20 yrs have 1000 ish black pine with half decent ramification and two to 3 inch twisted up trunks, I could get maybe 500$ + per on these. Seems like there is something I am missing here or maybe we all just need to start fields of black pines to get rich...$$$ haha

Obviously, guys like at evergreengardenworks grow cultivars from cuttings. Shoot, even doing this. Go to Japan, purchase 10 nice trees to take cuttings from and go from there.

Just some crazy idea floating around in my head late at night.
Um, yeah, good to excellent black pine material is expensive mostly because the people that are growing that material know how to grow it. It is not simply plunking seeds in the ground, watering and stepping back for a decade. If you think it is, you're "retirement fund" is going to be as effective as hoping to win the lottery.

Pruning CORRECTLY, AT THE RIGHT TIME, and with an idea of where the tree is head and when are all part of growing great stock. You don't just shear black pine bonsai stock like a Christmas tree farm. Even for those "only" growing cuttings, quality cuttings and seedlings for bonsai require some knowledge of how to grow them

If you are serious about growing great BP stock, invest some time (and $$) learning how. That might entail going to Japan for a bit, or an apprenticeship with a domestic grower or something similar.
 

Bonsai Nut

Nuttier than your average Nut
Messages
12,420
Reaction score
27,855
Location
Charlotte area, North Carolina
USDA Zone
8a
Good stock costs money because it is: experience x labor x time

Good stock doesn't just "happen" in a field. It requires attention from the moment it is a seedling, to set the structure, and the proper development work as it grows.

There is a reason why you don't see pre-bonsai growers living in million-dollar mansions :) They make money, but I am not aware of anyone getting filthy rich doing it.
 

RobertB

Chumono
Messages
736
Reaction score
708
Location
Fairhope AL
USDA Zone
8
Um, yeah, good to excellent black pine material is expensive mostly because the people that are growing that material know how to grow it. It is not simply plunking seeds in the ground, watering and stepping back for a decade. If you think it is, you're "retirement fund" is going to be as effective as hoping to win the lottery.

Pruning CORRECTLY, AT THE RIGHT TIME, and with an idea of where the tree is head and when are all part of growing great stock. You don't just shear black pine bonsai stock like a Christmas tree farm. Even for those "only" growing cuttings, quality cuttings and seedlings for bonsai require some knowledge of how to grow them

If you are serious about growing great BP stock, invest some time (and $$) learning how. That might entail going to Japan for a bit, or an apprenticeship with a domestic grower or something similar.

Yes I completely understand. There just seems to be some opportunity. Obviously I would have to learn myself or go in with someone who already knows. It definitely seams like work but at the same time it seems like there is really 2 times a year that are the busiest times for Japanese Black Pines. I understand though that you have to start with good stock and that not all seeds would be good trees. Obviously there would be some learning there. So say 5 yrs if I wanted to learn myself. Im also not saying Im about to do this. Just some wild idea.
 

RobertB

Chumono
Messages
736
Reaction score
708
Location
Fairhope AL
USDA Zone
8
Good stock costs money because it is: experience x labor x time

Good stock doesn't just "happen" in a field. It requires attention from the moment it is a seedling, to set the structure, and the proper development work as it grows.

There is a reason why you don't see pre-bonsai growers living in million-dollar mansions :) They make money, but I am not aware of anyone getting filthy rich doing it.

Yes, and there is only so much a given market can support, even if you had 1000 perfect stock JBP trees ready to sell.
 

namnhi

Masterpiece
Messages
2,595
Reaction score
4,547
Location
Houston TX
USDA Zone
8b
I started to feel that there are already a lot of people have already started JBP from seeds that will cause the demand for it to be much lessen that what we have now. In the next 10 or 20 years I think the demand will not be as high as now or you will have to compete with many suppliers. Fun to grow trees but business...not so much.
 

RobertB

Chumono
Messages
736
Reaction score
708
Location
Fairhope AL
USDA Zone
8
I tend to agree. At the same time, how many of, including myself will start them and either have bad luck with or drop our of for some other reason. A lot can change in peoples lives in 6 yrs. Again, this isn't something im jumping into. Just had a crazy thought about it.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Yes, and there is only so much a given market can support, even if you had 1000 perfect stock JBP trees ready to sell.
You already have stiff competition. There are a few folks selling pretty good stock now.

Here on the East Coast, I know in the last few years Matt Ouwinga in Maryland sells thousands of black and red pine seedlings every year from seeds he sources in Japan--he used to work for Kunio Kobyashi at his nursery in Japan. I also know he's growing some of that stuff out for later sale. Bill Valavanis has similar efforts.

On the West Coast, California already has more than a few established, well-respected bonsai nurseries with Black pine stock (and we easterners can get it pretty easily)
https://kaedebonsai-en.com/shop/product-category/pottedestablished_seedlings/
https://maruyamabonsainursery.wordpress.com/conifers/
https://www.ebay.com/usr/mbn1978
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
12,608
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
I tend to agree. At the same time, how many of, including myself will start them and either have bad luck with or drop our of for some other reason. A lot can change in peoples lives in 6 yrs. Again, this isn't something im jumping into. Just had a crazy thought about it.
Very few will take the time to do it right. Therefore very few will succeed. Training, labour, Time, materials, dedication. All of the above is expensive. Just sit back and observe the number who wish to compromise on materials, time spent, quick solutions.
High quality stock represents a lot of skill, time and materials invested.
Current prices in North America are not excessive. Out of 1,000 trees how many will command higher prices after 7-10 years as truly excellent quality pre-bonsai? That will depend on the skill of the grower as well as things that are beyond their control such as weather and wildlife damage.
You can count on 3-5 hours of labour per year per tree to do it right. Re-potting, wiring, pruning, fertilizing, watering, spraying etc. Material costs over 7-10 years. Containers, wire, bonsai soil, fertilizer, water. Then there is the infrastructure, water systems, wells, pumps, benchs, field prep, grow out beds, benches. Sure all investments can be thought out wisely and done with prudence, however from a business perspective costs must be accounted for if one wants to understand if it is a profitable adventure. So each tree 50 hours of labour plus material costs and a portion of the infrastructure investment at 10 years. What is a fair hourly rate?
Just my perspective. Best in Bonsai
 

hemmy

Omono
Messages
1,390
Reaction score
1,717
Location
NE KS (formerly SoCal 10a)
USDA Zone
6a

CWTurner

Omono
Messages
1,266
Reaction score
1,732
Location
Philadelphia PA
USDA Zone
7a
As @hemmy says, do it.

About 25 years ago I had to take down a big Empress Paulownia (sic) tree. Because of its desirable wood (some sort of Japanese tradition) the forester removed the tree for free, and gave me $1,700 to boot. I said to myself "I should plant a few dozen of these on the family's vacation acreage upstate" Never did it, and man did the 25 years go fast. I'll never know if I would have been wasting my time, or if I'd have a fatter bank account now if I followed through.
CW
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,182
Reaction score
22,180
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
As @hemmy says, do it.

About 25 years ago I had to take down a big Empress Paulownia (sic) tree. Because of its desirable wood (some sort of Japanese tradition) the forester removed the tree for free, and gave me $1,700 to boot. I said to myself "I should plant a few dozen of these on the family's vacation acreage upstate" Never did it, and man did the 25 years go fast. I'll never know if I would have been wasting my time, or if I'd have a fatter bank account now if I followed through.
CW
Those things grow all over the place around here, especially along the railroad tracks, but thefts have dropped off tremendously in the last few years
http://www.daggerpress.com/2008/07/...aulownia-trees-for-the-asian-bridal-industry/
 

Sn0W

Shohin
Messages
305
Reaction score
314
Location
Bristol, UK
Fuck it, if you've got the money then it's worth a try right? Might as well do something you'd enjoy the process of. Spending money to make money only looks bad on the outset. I've actually just purchased 2 10 year allotment leases to try something similar on a small scale, just to see how it works and what is required
 

bonsai-ben

Mame
Messages
190
Reaction score
264
Location
Orlando, FL
USDA Zone
9B
More people are alive today, than have ever been alive in the history of our species.

More will be alive tomorrow, and that grows like a wart on a big toe.

More trees as seeds now is good. More bonsai is always good. Please do grow, and grow a lot. Worse case, you have a bunch of nice trees. Best case, you're rich. At least you had fun doing it.
 

leatherback

The Treedeemer
Messages
13,937
Reaction score
26,876
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
I think it was Bill Valavanis who said, “The best way to make a million bucks in Bonsai is to start with two million bucks.”
Wow. That sounds better than investing in Bitcoin :)

But seriously.. I looked into this some 5 years ago too. I realized

- The market is VERY small for trees at that pricepoint
- Most trees will NOT catch the 500-1000 premium, but will get stuck at 100-200 level as they will not have the perfect shape or taper (Unless you REALLY know what you are doing)
- Time investment to do this right would require at least a day a week. It is not a quick thin on the side at the scale you mention (Weeding, wiring, trimming, rootwork, spraying)

After taking out the cost for materials (wire, substrate, pots, waterlines, waste management etc), working at McD for 20 years is likely to give you a better earning per hour. And that is without the luck you might have of a sudden 30% loss to a infestation missed during your long break away from things..
 
Top Bottom