Communis dying in Akadama

Prostrelov

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Why does juniperus communis shouldn't been placed into soil mixes based on akadama ?
I heard this from Mirai team here: https://live.bonsaimirai.com/archive/video/soils
and couple of different guys on forums. But there is no answer, details and suggestions about it.
Maybe some one already experienced this problem.
 

Vance Wood

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Why does juniperus communis shouldn't been placed into soil mixes based on akadama ?
I heard this from Mirai team here: https://live.bonsaimirai.com/archive/video/soils
and couple of different guys on forums. But there is no answer, details and suggestions about it.
Maybe some one already experienced this problem.
If you find out could you post the answer please, I am unable to access the link you have provided. By the way, I am not a fan of akadama.
 

Nybonsai12

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all my junipers are in akadama, pumice and lava. They are doing just fine.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I don't know why exactly.
But I want to give it a shot: from my own experience I have noticed that communis doesn't like repotting. Which means in practice, that soil is almost never changed for new soil. With akadama, there's the problem that it breaks down over time and becomes soft clay.
Once the akadama is soft clay, the soil becomes too dense for juniper roots; they suffocate and die.
In the wild, you never see communis grow on clay soils for that reason, I believe. Communis does well on well-draining soil, and akadama drains well.. but only for +/- 3 years.
There will be akadama stuck to the root base after some time, and touching the root base on communis seems to be a killer for them. I did a bare root, a half bare root, and a 1/5th bare root repot this year. And only the 1/5th bare root survived.

From all junipers I've handled this year (scopulorum, chinensis, chinensis blaauw, phoenicea, chinensis stricta, procumbens nana and communis) the communis seems to be the most sensitive of them all. It looks like they just don't like living. Where most junipers take 1-3 months to die or show damage, communis takes about 1 week to turn brown. Other junipers keep branches alive when there's just a small crack, communis kills the branch.

Maybe someone more experienced with communis or junipers in general could have a better explanation. I'm taking a guess here, based on the main reason to avoid akadama.

I have communis seedlings in akadama, they have grown 0 centimeters since they popped up. Communis in regular horticultural seedling mix (potting soil + turf + sand) are 3-4cm in height.
 

Vance Wood

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I believe that there is a great deal of confusion when it comes to the cultivation of Junipers and the attempts to treat them all the same way.
 

Nybonsai12

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all your junipers are commons and spend in this soil more than 2 years ?

I have shimpakus, prostrata, san jose, procumbens all in this mix, not the species you indicate sorry for any confusion.. I usually end up repotting every 2 years.
 

Prostrelov

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I don't know why exactly.
But I want to give it a shot: from my own experience I have noticed that communis doesn't like repotting. Which means in practice, that soil is almost never changed for new soil. With akadama, there's the problem that it breaks down over time and becomes soft clay.
Once the akadama is soft clay, the soil becomes too dense for juniper roots; they suffocate and die.
In the wild, you never see communis grow on clay soils for that reason, I believe. Communis does well on well-draining soil, and akadama drains well.. but only for +/- 3 years.
There will be akadama stuck to the root base after some time, and touching the root base on communis seems to be a killer for them. I did a bare root, a half bare root, and a 1/5th bare root repot this year. And only the 1/5th bare root survived.

From all junipers I've handled this year (scopulorum, chinensis, chinensis blaauw, phoenicea, chinensis stricta, procumbens nana and communis) the communis seems to be the most sensitive of them all. It looks like they just don't like living. Where most junipers take 1-3 months to die or show damage, communis takes about 1 week to turn brown. Other junipers keep branches alive when there's just a small crack, communis kills the branch.

Maybe someone more experienced with communis or junipers in general could have a better explanation. I'm taking a guess here, based on the main reason to avoid akadama.

I have communis seedlings in akadama, they have grown 0 centimeters since they popped up. Communis in regular horticultural seedling mix (potting soil + turf + sand) are 3-4cm in height.
This is pretty interesting and believable theory. What's your suggestion for a long run healthy common junipers ?
If we can use only 1/5th bare root repotting we should rely on organic fertilizers only ?
And what about soil mix ?
 

Anthony

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2 suggestions - See if the communis produces an exceptional
bonsai [ or is this a special love situation - memory etc.]
Otherwise move on to ...................

[ 2 ] Though on our side junipers are not favourites, we have a
few from Miami, and they grow in a simple mix of 5 mm silica
based gravel and compost [ 8 gravel to 2 compost ]

We do not have the right conditions for Junipers but these
shrubs are around 20 years old.
Repotted every 5 years.
Please note ---------- not worth showing.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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This is pretty interesting and believable theory. What's your suggestion for a long run healthy common junipers ?
If we can use only 1/5th bare root repotting we should rely on organic fertilizers only ?
And what about soil mix ?


I see them in the wild in both sandy forests (transition forests; pines and oaks, sandy soils and very little nutrients) and in sand flats (poor soils, mostly rock and sand).
They don't seem to grow anywhere else around here.
I don't have suggestions for the long run, since I've been growing them for just 2 years now. Mine are in a mix of clay pellets (pumice like) with pine bark. This seems to be working well.
In nurseries, they're usually grown in cocopeat + sand + bark.
I feed them organic, but it's more of a shot in the dark.
 

Prostrelov

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Clay pellets (pumice like) with pine bark. Totally hydroponics i guess ?
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Same mix as these pines, but with more and smaller chunks of bark.
DSCF0187.JPG
Those hydroponic pellets are too large. The smallest we can get here have a diameter of 0.5cm or +/- 1/5th inches. Those are all round.
The ones in the picture have varying sizes and shapes, almost like akadama. Which means they're better suited for our needs; they don't leave as much room for air as round pellets would.



Here are some pictures of communis in the wild, growing in sandy soil. In the forest surrounding that area, there are no communis junipers to be found:
20180610_152759.jpg20180610_152809.jpg
These soils are pure sand. Up to a few meters deep into the ground, all pale white sand.
Water doesn't pool there and it rarely stays wet for prolonged periods. I could pull a 5 year old pine straight from the ground and no sand stuck to the roots.
Nutrients are provided by birds and rabbits, maybe a lizard or two.
 

WNC Bonsai

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Harry Harrington says on his website (www.bonsai4me.com) that J. communis has a reputation for dying suddenly 2-3 years after collection but nursery grown plants are more relaible. So the question is are your plants collected or commercially grown?
 

chicago1980

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Mirai is speaking about collected trees, and in particular Ryan reffers to the success rate the Europeans are having with their soil mix.

I want a communis in my collection.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I have only collected cuttings. They're not dead yet (after a month) but they show little activity.
The rest is nursery stock, but those are equally sensitive. Nursery Communis died even when handled with care. It's branches don't bend, they snap. A lot of local nurseries - even the bonsai ones - only advertise Horstmann cultivars for some reason. Which is a weeping variety with greater flexibility.

I can imagine communis dying after collection. Even in nature they tend to die for some unknown reason, which is part of the reason why conservation of their populations is so hard.
 

Maros

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Juniperus communis is known for its terrible reputation as a material for bonsai. I heard many times it is attacked by a fungal disease which is killing it or forcing it to loose whole branches. The story goes they tend to die suddenly after a few years (2-10). My very first collected tree was communis (8/2008) died last year suddenly. I still have one collected in 2009, repotted once, poted in the pure zeolite. Doing fine so far. But I'm not touching it and it has not been styled.
 

Owen Reich

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Juniperus communis grow all over the place. From what I have seen with my collected ones, they seem to like over-sized media and lots of water.

If you don’t get a large portion of the root system when collecting, they don’t seem to do as well. I’ve colllected some myself and will continue to learn about how they behave in S.E. US. One of the few junipers I’m not allergic to : ).

I do not agree about never touching the roots. They do get fungal infections easily, which Mancozeb rotated with copper can cure. I can see how akadama in large quantities could affect the health of a Common Juniper. Mine have about 25% high fired akadama and seem fine.

They aren’t easy to stabilize, and in my opinion need to be re-potted later in the spring; almost summer (like Juniperus rigida). Mirai has some really nice refined common junipers. That’s my qualifier to listen to what someone has to say.

I’ll post a pic of the tree as it is now after a few years of container growth.
 

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Vance Wood

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After thinking about this for a few days I have come to what to me seems to be a reasonable conclusion. It is difficult for me to fathom why a tree should suddenly up and die just because of the medium it is planted in. What I know about Akadama is the fact that after two or three years it starts to break down. It is probable that it is the breaking down and the change in the structure of the substrate that is the problem. Try using a soil mix that does not contain anything that will break down that is also a large percentage of the structure of the soil mix. Most people that use Akadama consider it an important part of a soil mix therefore a good percentage of the soil mix is likely to be made of the stuff. Just my opinion based on some 60 years of observation and experience.
 
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