Comparing Painting and Bonsai

[johng]

Every thread in my body says leave this alone...but now that I home from work and have the time to respond appropriately I feel the need to defend myself.

Will...first let me say that you act like this doesn't ever happen to you and when it does your are just the poor innocent one with intelligence on his side.. (I bet no one but you agrees with that)

You said this to Tom,

"Can you honestly read through the thread here and say that I instigated anything?"

For me Will, this is where the instigation began:

What would you have us use as comparison? Gardening? Topiary? Bowling? Needle Point?

Exactly what was your intention, Will, when you decided to type this? Was this necessary to make your point? Other than ask a question what had I done at this point to deserve this tone? I took this as only a slightly veiled insult. (again I doubt anyone that has been reading your posts for any period of time would disagree with the nature of this comment) And I called you on it in my response.

But then you come back with this...

What is laughable is your attempt to censor discussion based on experience. Will you be the judge on who is qualified to discuss anything on this forum? What are your qualifications as a selection judge? Should we all pm you first to see what is allowed?

Silly, isn't it? John, if you disagree with the subject, debate it intelligently, but don't attack the participants, that is a juvenile tactic and it carries no weight.

As if the tone of the history lesson that proceeded the above quote did not already imply that I was an idiot, (When in fact I have been studying those very texts since the publication of two of them and the Mustard Seed Garden for a least a decade before you started in bonsai - why do I even try to defend myself?), in your usual fashion, had to take it a step further...go into attack mode! Can you tell me, Will, that the above quotes were not written to instigate? Were not meant to be insulting? Were not meant to belittle what I had said Again, I ask you, Will, exactly what had I said to deserve this kind of response? How would respond to this? (how do you think the folks reading this are reacting?)

You complain that no one can or will carry on a discussion...an intelligent discussion. I ask you, Will, is the tone of your posts in this thread, and the dozens of other just like it, what you consider an intelligent discussion? Can really you believe that your overly aggressive and zealous style is going to encourage and enable thoughtful discussion. I am not taking anything away from your detail...nobody is better than you at this...but what about the TONE, Will?

You of all people, with your gift for rhetoric, should recognize that your responses do more than stir good discussion. They in site, they piss people off because you talk down to them, they appear to come from someone so intent on winning everything that he leaves all respect and humility behind... There is a desperation about how you choose to respond in threads that is never conducive to an intelligent discussion.

You seem to forget that you confided to me once in a pm. I was obviously naive about you but you made your purpose very clear...

and...That is why I am so embarrassed, mad, and regretful that I even started this thread...quell your ego, Will... its intent was never to in site you...only to ask why do we compare art forms that are so fundamentally different. Obviously a question that was much too shallow for your deep intellect but yet too much of a nice fat slow pitch for you to resist swinging at

and by the way I post to my blog pretty regularly. At least on this blog I get to be my own moderator...and I am not expected to answer to your KOB flunky about what I post and where I do it.

I expect that you will respond to this post by changing the subject and blaming me some more just as you did with Tom's recent post...and that's ok Will...

In fact since you like contests so much and are so good at creating them, I propose a little contest or poll, Will. Lets ask the folks here at BonsaiNut who they side with..? you or me? If after 7 days, more people side with you, I will never post here again. Of course the same would apply to you...if more folks are on my side at the end of 7 days then you would stop posting here as well. Lets make it registered users as of today and welcome them to go back and read any of our previous posts.

Lets put it in the hands of the folks that read and post here! I'm game, are you?

John

 

[JTGJr25]

You of all people, with your gift for rhetoric, should recognize that your responses do more than stir good discussion. They in site, they piss people off because you talk down to them, they appear to come from someone so intent on winning everything that he leaves all respect and humility behind... There is a desperation about how you choose to respond in threads that is never conducive to an intelligent discussion.

That is precisely what I was trying to say but you captured it much better.

Will, you say that you want responses where the information is backed by facts. How in hell does this type of discussion turn into anything but a fact sheet? Opinions are where new ideas come from, why does everything have to be factual? I find it utterly boring to have a conversation where everything is factual and nothing is open for discussion. Once again, just because you read it some where doesn't mean its always true. Leave things open for debate, you say you do but honestly you don't.


Tom

 

[Smoke]

Hah! Will alway replies to my threads at Bt somewhere else cause I don't have to deal with him there. He says I am chicken to post anywhere he can post at.

He overestimates that anyone wants to hear what he has to say.

John, Will is a man with an agenda and those people my friend are dangerous. Will is black or white, and if you are on the opposing side you are wrong and thats all there is to it. Your opinion means nothing because you can't disagree with fact. Bonsai can be compared to many arts yet is so far away from them it bears discussing, but not here. Maybe another day. Bonsai is never black or white, it is changing and what may be art for 15 minutes can be just average the next day.

I say continue on your quest with or without Will, he is just a gnat flying around all that could be good with bonsai discussion. A good bonsai discussion with Will Heath will never be intelligent. It will always degrade into basic animalistic pissing matches because Will does not discuss with a bonsai heart, he discussess with an egotistical I am of superior intelligence mouth.

There is nothing intelligent about the art of bonsai. Creating bonsai art is not the domain of the intelligent. It is owned by the domain of the creative, those with heart, those that seek creative technique and posess the ability to work with their hands. The masters of the last century in Japan were farmers and gardeners, as well as the many Asian masters we have had in the USA. After the war and release from camps, many would go on to opertate gardening business' around the US. Many had no formal education, and certainly were not educated in the arts, but they all were very sucessful in making beautiful bonsai. John Naka created Goshin not to make a beautiful bonsai forest of junipers, but to recognize his grandchildren and create a symbol of protection. It just so happened that it was beautiful also. Talk about Heart!

For instance in past debates about 360 view bonsai, we all know there are certain instances that a bonsai will not be a tree that can be pleasing from all sides. It does not diminish the fact that it is pleasing from one side. Will will argue to the death that that is the future of bonsai and unless you are on board with his notion you are somehow less of an artist for thinking this way. I just don't see it that way.

The same could go on for folier feeding, cutpaste, talent, supply and demand etc., etc. I see absolutely no need to compare bonsai with anything other than how it relates to other bonsai. Artistic principles that are often used to compare artistic bonsai are tools for those that wish to somehow make a tree follow certain principles for a better understanding on how it was created. Just get out there and start doing some good creating with some trees and make a few that can be considerd artistic and Mr Will will soon find out how much this art crap can be thrown right out the window. It's just not necessary. You absolutely cannot create atistic bonsai by following a set of principles like a paint by number, and the sooner this is realized the easier it will become. Bonsai has always been seat of the pants directly from the heart. Always has been always will be.

Cheers, Al

 

[johng]

Thanks Al...I'll heed your advice and appreciate your commentary.
John

 

[Anonymous User]

First, let me respond to Al Keppler, who can be counted on to rush into any thread that concerns me personally...

Hah! Will alway replies to my threads at Bt somewhere else cause I don't have to deal with him there. He says I am chicken to post anywhere he can post at.

He overestimates that anyone wants to hear what he has to say.

I answer your personal attacks against me that you make at BT, where I can't respond, somewhere else because such cowardliness should not go unanswered.

I underestimate nothing, you see I ignore people who I do want to hear, based on the response I get, one could hardly say I am being ignored.

John, Will is a man with an agenda and those people my friend are dangerous. Will is black or white, and if you are on the opposing side you are wrong and thats all there is to it. Your opinion means nothing because you can't disagree with fact. Bonsai can be compared to many arts yet is so far away from them it bears discussing, but not here. Maybe another day. Bonsai is never black or white, it is changing and what may be art for 15 minutes can be just average the next day.

Yes, I do have an agenda, you are absolutely right. I work toward that agenda every single day, the results have been AoB, KoB, many published articles, and some work on a couple very important books soon to be published as well. I advanced my agenda by helping create the first and only forum dealing exclusively with the artistic aspects of bonsai. By helping to create the web's largest gallery of world-class bonsai and interviews with the artists who create them. By helping to create the web's only collection of blogs by renowned artists and by creating the most successful contests concerning bonsai on the web.

My agenda is to advance the artistic aspects of bonsai, this has always been my agenda, even back in the days of BT where you and others made every effort to dismiss bonsai as an art form and disrupt any conversation about art.

You said, "Your opinion means nothing because you can't disagree with fact" but you miss the point, an opinion means nothing if it is not backed up with fact. This is the truth, no matter what you are discussing. You can believe the world is flat and ignore the facts to the contrary, but your still wrong.

What you miss Al, is that there is nothing wrong with debating a subject intelligently, this is how advancements are made. The trick is to debate the subject, not the person. Take your post here, nothing at all to do with the subject matter, just more of the same old Al Keppler complaints and whining. man up Al, if you disagree with what I have said on the subject, prove me wrong, don't tell me my personality flaws, you are not a shining example of civility yourself.

You'd think this was a hobby full of teenagers, I take that back, the teenagers here act much better.

I say continue on your quest with or without Will, he is just a gnat flying around all that could be good with bonsai discussion. A good bonsai discussion with Will Heath will never be intelligent. It will always degrade into basic animalistic pissing matches because Will does not discuss with a bonsai heart, he discussess with an egotistical I am of superior intelligence mouth.

I guess when one can't have an intelligent discussion, one resorts to name calling and insults. What's wrong Al, can't post a single intelligent thought on the subject matter? Stop being a whining, name calling, know it all and add something to the discussion. For crying out loud, my seven year old daughter can discuss a subject without such juvenile tactics.

There is nothing intelligent about the art of bonsai. Creating bonsai art is not the domain of the intelligent. It is owned by the domain of the creative, those with heart, those that seek creative technique and posess the ability to work with their hands. The masters of the last century in Japan were farmers and gardeners, as well as the many Asian masters we have had in the USA.

Hey Al, ever hear of the Literati?

Your grasp of bonsai history is weak Al. The real truth is that only royalty and the educated had bonsai in the beginning, both in China and Japan, it wasn't until long after the art was refined that the "farmers" had access to them. Even the Literati, those hermits of legend, came from government and bureaucracy backgrounds. Leaving to peruse inner peace.

For instance in past debates about 360 view bonsai, we all know there are certain instances that a bonsai will not be a tree that can be pleasing from all sides. It does not diminish the fact that it is pleasing from one side. Will will argue to the death that that is the future of bonsai and unless you are on board with his notion you are somehow less of an artist for thinking this way. I just don't see it that way.

Al, you fought to the death the notion of three dimensional bonsai, the concept bothers you so much that you bring it up here where nothing of the sort is being discussed. As I said three years ago, when you can discuss the concept in an intelligent manner, please do so. You will find plenty of company here. Some of the best artists of our time see this as a valid technique and have created trees that meet the criteria. The article linked to has over 44,000 views to date, it was published in Bonsai Today issue 101, and like it or not, there is no doubt it was successful.

You see Al, it made people think, it made people discuss the concept, it was so good that even you bring it up in an unrelated thread three years after it was published. I'll take that any day of the week.

The same could go on for folier feeding, cutpaste, talent, supply and demand etc., etc.

I see you read my "Debunking the Myths of Bonsai" article. For someone who stated above that I overestimate that anyone wants to hear what I has to say, you sure are a closet fan of mine. It is nice to know that you are a reader of my every word, thank you.

Have you seen "Finding the Tree Within" - "In Defense of the Mallsai" - "Talent - The Holy Grail of Bonsai" or "A Brief Exploration of the Literati Style" yet?

...Mr Will will soon find out how much this art crap can be thrown right out the window. It's just not necessary.

Isn't this what you said about three years ago when www.artofbonsai.org was started? You're as wrong now as you were then.


Just out of curiosity, do you actually have anything to say about the subject matter, or did you just come to express your dislike for me again?



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Will, you say that you want responses where the information is backed by facts. How in hell does this type of discussion turn into anything but a fact sheet? Opinions are where new ideas come from, why does everything have to be factual?

Because opinions can be wrong. Opinions are just that, opinions, you know, everybody has one and they all stink....I can have an opinion that watering with crude oil will give me some really slick trees....should this go unchallenged because I have a right to an opinion? Of course not.

What else would you want but facts? You have an opinion, that is good, but that is all it is, an opinion. That is until you support it with sources, experimentation, references, or a combination of such. John posting his opinion that comparing bonsai to painting was laughable. I came back with my opinion, but backed with the long history of bonsai and painting being used together, intertwined, and in some cases, the creation of certain styles can be directly attributed to paintings.

Now you have two opinions, one supported and one not supported, you are free to make up your own mind on the subject. Why hang the person whose only crime was giving supporting facts with his opinion?

Once again, just because you read it some where doesn't mean its always true. Leave things open for debate, you say you do but honestly you don't.

Tom, I think even you will agree that the references I gave are very reliable sources of information and the authors are undoubtedly very respected in the community.

I do indeed leave things open for debate, the problem is that a few people see a debate as a chance to slam someone instead of a chance to intelligently discuss a subject.

Will

 

[Anonymous User]

For me Will, this is where the instigation began:

"What would you have us use as comparison? Gardening? Topiary? Bowling? Needle Point?"

Exactly what was your intention, Will, when you decided to type this? Was this necessary to make your point? Other than ask a question what had I done at this point to deserve this tone? I took this as only a slightly veiled insult. (again I doubt anyone that has been reading your posts for any period of time would disagree with the nature of this comment) And I called you on it in my response.

John,

Let's back up a bit. Before that comment was made, you made a few yourself...

In my book, if you base your arguments on a faulty analogy or comparison nothing you say after that means anything."

"In the "some times you are just in awe" thread, the discussion about "cookie cutter" trees is laughable! The trees posted in that thread are so far beyond what the majority of folks commenting on that thread will ever own, let alone create, it is just beyond hilarious that they would have the audacity to make some of the comments that have been made"

_______________________________________________________________

But then you come back with this...

"What is laughable is your attempt to censor discussion based on experience. Will you be the judge on who is qualified to discuss anything on this forum? What are your qualifications as a selection judge? Should we all pm you first to see what is allowed?

Silly, isn't it? John, if you disagree with the subject, debate it intelligently, but don't attack the participants, that is a juvenile tactic and it carries no weight."

..... Can you tell me, Will, that the above quotes were not written to instigate? Were not meant to be insulting? Were not meant to belittle what I had said Again, I ask you, Will, exactly what had I said to deserve this kind of response? How would respond to this? (how do you think the folks reading this are reacting?)

These words were in direct response to your words quoted above, you know, "smart ass" "hilarious" "laughable"

It appears we are both guilty.

and by the way I post to my blog pretty regularly. At least on this blog I get to be my own moderator...and I am not expected to answer to your KOB flunky about what I post and where I do it.

Thank you for informing me of this, I'll make the changes at KoB. I'm not sure what you mean about answering to someone, but I would certainly like to know, please email me.

Good luck with it, your blog was always a good read.

I expect that you will respond to this post by changing the subject and blaming me some more just as you did with Tom's recent post...and that's ok Will...

Actually it was not I who changed the subject, I would still like to see the original subject explored.

In fact since you like contests so much and are so good at creating them, I propose a little contest or poll, Will. Lets ask the folks here at BonsaiNut who they side with..? you or me? If after 7 days, more people side with you, I will never post here again. Of course the same would apply to you...if more folks are on my side at the end of 7 days then you would stop posting here as well. Lets make it registered users as of today and welcome them to go back and read any of our previous posts.

No thanks, I have dealt with the BT crowd and fixed, faked, and twisted results before. But before you claim cowardliness, I have done this before, over at BT at that and at Bchat, where the same few people (Chris, Al, etc) acted the same old way. http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/f23/democratic-banishment-9330.html strangely, I wasn't voted off the island, either of them.

You can follow your comment about leaving the forums, but I think I'll stick around for awhile, thanks just the same. Besides, you contribute a lot here, your experience and talent is valuable, I'd miss you.



Have a good night John,



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Now, does anyone want to discuss the comparison of bonsai to other art forms?




Will

 

[johng]

No thanks, I have dealt with the BT crowd and fixed, faked, and twisted results before. But before you claim cowardliness, I have done this before, over at BT at that and at Bchat, where the same few people (Chris, Al, etc) acted the same old way. http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/f23/democratic-banishment-9330.html strangely, I wasn't voted off the island, either of them.

You can follow your comment about leaving the forums, but I think I'll stick around for awhile, thanks just the same. Besides, you contribute a lot here, your experience and talent is valuable, I'd miss you.


Have a good night John,


Will

So, after insulting my intelligence, my manhood, and suggesting I might cheat you in a contest all day long you want to leave by paying me a compliment (oh wait..with a little wink after it) oh my, I wonder if that means you are not serious???? I guess I should have put a little wink after my contest invitation...not because I wasn't serious but because I knew you would never agree...it just doesn't fit into your agenda... publicly or privately.

Oh and by the way, this is my thread...go start your own if you want to continue YOUR DISCUSSIONS.

I hope you have a great day!
John

 

[Anonymous User]

So, after insulting my intelligence, my manhood, and suggesting I might cheat you in a contest all day long you want to leave by paying me a compliment (oh wait..with a little wink after it) oh my, I wonder if that means you are not serious???? I guess I should have put a little wink after my contest invitation...not because I wasn't serious but because I knew you would never agree...it just doesn't fit into your agenda... publicly or privately.

Oh and by the way, this is my thread...go start your own if you want to continue YOUR DISCUSSIONS.

I have been in such vote offs before, as linked to above, so your agenda theory is invalid, sorry.

And if you would support your claims instead of attacking me, then the discussion could continue. The fact is that painting and bonsai are valid comparisons, and that painting helped to refine bonsai in the past.

Debate that, not me, if you're capable.


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Quingquan Zhao, in his book, "Penjing: Worlds of Wonderment" states the following:


"From its very inception, penjing has been an art of the Chinese Scholar. The literati of traditional China created this special art form for the purpose of self-cultivation, the development of character, and the refinement of aesthetic taste. Penjing shares a philosophical foundation with Chinese landscape gardens, paintings, and poetry. All these art forms have played similar roles in Chinese culture. They have greatly influenced one another, grown into each other, and none of them can be viewed as a separate entity."


It is also common knowledge that the Japanese bonsaists looked to paintings and painting manuals for inspiration, indeed the literati style of bonsai is said to have been developed when artists attempted to create bonsai that looked like the trees featured in literati paintings.

Knowing the history of bonsai and its interrelationship with paintings, is it really invalid to compare the two, especially when discussing artistic principles?


More later.....

 

[Smoke]

Tom,



Please someone take the opposing side, or hell, I will, it doesn't matter, all that matters is that the issue is discussed intelligently so that both sides are presented in an easily readable format that others may use to come to their own conclusion.


It is not that difficult of a concept.




Will

Sometimes a person has to look at a thread and understand that the question is rhetorical, unless you wish to agree with me. I think popular opinion shows that most people are quite tired of the comparison to bonsai with two dimensional art mediums. Sure sculpting may fit the ideal of bonsai closer but it's just not applicable to the discussion. Taking the "other side" just for the sake of argument does not propel the argument. It only serves to degrade the discussion into a pissing match. There is no argument that canvas art and bonsai have similer properties. These properties are discussed after the fact. The bonsai is shown and the relations to art are explored. Art in and of itself hardley ever is the compelling emotion in the creation of bonsai. Silly huh?*

I can draw a straight line on a piece of paper and talk about the complexities that line provides to the world of art. In the end it's still just a line on a piece of paper. Who cares! Will anyone argueing about the negative space, or the length of the line compared to the size of the paper, or the pressure applied to the pencil to draw the line or mryid of other boreing aspects of art do anything to lend credence to my simple line? Silly huh?

Comparing bonsai to other forms of art does nothing to further bonsai. Not many people do bonsai to create art, and those that do achieve it by coincidence.

This is what you said about your agenda...

My agenda is to advance the artistic aspects of bonsai, this has always been my agenda, even back in the days of BT where you and others made every effort to dismiss bonsai as an art form and disrupt any conversation about art.

How about leaving the talk to those creating art. Untill you yourself have created art, your opinion weighs the same as anyone else. In this arena of creating art you lack the skills to produce art so therefore anything you say are the words or feelings of someone else. I have read easily as many books as you, maybe more. In most cases artists do not speak of art, and dismiss it entirely as a motivating force in the creation of their art as seen by those that feel a need to label it as such.

I do not feel a need to label it as such. I could care less if any tree I have seen is considered art or not. I allow the tree to expose itself without the need to force it into any label. They move me or they do not. It may be art as deemed by someone else but it may not be to me. Subjectivity is to great a force to narrow bonsai into such a small scope as art.

Cheers, Al

* I added the silly huh's just to remind you that sometimes you talk down to people without ever realizing it. Not one person says anything on this forum that is silly. Every one carries the same weight as you, and in a lot of cases much more because they have expereince in that of which they speak of. No one ever dismisses your words, no one ever dismisses your conviction or your passion. What we do dispise is your continual need to "prove" you are right at any cost and make all those involved seem ignorant in the process. If your agenda is to have a collection of world class artists assembled in one place, bully, you have done that. Leave the actual bonsai discussion to those that have demonstrated they can do it and I am sure you will be welcomed to any discussion about bonsai when you yourself can show us anything done in the past four years that can be considerd an improvement by all your bonsai itelligence. Recent postings of a demo have shown otherwise. (If you wish to discuss that intelligently I would be pleased as punch.)

You are right about one thing..You do not have to be an electrical engineer to understand it would not be wise to stick your finger in the receptical...but it would also not be wise to consider the engineer ignorant for not putting a child proof cap over it either.

 

[Anonymous User]

Sometimes a person has to look at a thread and understand that the question is rhetorical, unless you wish to agree with me. I think popular opinion shows that most people are quite tired of the comparison to bonsai with two dimensional art mediums. Sure sculpting may fit the ideal of bonsai closer but it's just not applicable to the discussion.

There was no question presented Al, retorical or otherwise. John plainly stated that comparing bonsai to painting was laughable. The discussion was about the comparison of other art forms to bonsai, hence such discussion is indeed applicable.

The question is why you are unable to debate the subject matter?

Comparing bonsai to other forms of art does nothing to further bonsai. Not many people do bonsai to create art, and those that do achieve it by coincidence.

Thanks for the quote.

How about leaving the talk to those creating art. Untill you yourself have created art, your opinion weighs the same as anyone else. In this arena of creating art you lack the skills to produce art so therefore anything you say are the words or feelings of someone else.

How about trying to debate the subject and not me, if you are capable?

I have read easily as many books as you, maybe more.

Really, how many books have I read?

Leave the actual bonsai discussion to those that have demonstrated they can do it and I am sure you will be welcomed to any discussion about bonsai when you yourself can show us anything done in the past four years that can be considerd an improvement by all your bonsai itelligence.

How about trying to debate the subject and not me, if you are capable?



Will

 

[Smoke]

It is also common knowledge that the Japanese bonsaists looked to paintings and painting manuals for inspiration, indeed the literati style of bonsai is said to have been developed when artists attempted to create bonsai that looked like the trees featured in literati paintings.

Knowing the history of bonsai and its interrelationship with paintings, is it really invalid to compare the two, especially when discussing artistic principles?


More later.....

I would like to see a reference or link to an internet posting showing how the discussion of artistic ideals caused a paradigm shift in the way bonsai is done. Paradigm shifts in any culture occur when the body as a whole unanimously agree that working in that direction would be good for the future development of any endeavor. I see bonsai as a natural progression of a thousand years of development. There have been no natural paradigm shifts in the way bonsai is done unless you count technical advancement which offer nothing to the artistry of the finished product. I can look at trees from 400 year ago and see nothing artiscally different in the way bonsai was done then or in the way bonsai is done now. Argueing over it on a simple discussion forum less than 10 years old is not moving bonsai expotentially forward.

What has moved bonsai forward worldwide is the movement from nursery material and it's limitations to the world of collected material. This is not a paradigm shift, it just means we are solving an age old problem with easier to use material. Art will be a byproduct of this movement, not the driving force advanceing it.

Cheers, Al

 

[Anonymous User]

How about leaving the talk to those creating art. Untill you yourself have created art, your opinion weighs the same as anyone else.

Well then, since you have disqualified yourself and myself, and most other members here, let's leave the words to one of the world's best bonsai artist.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4775&postcount=36

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4782#post4782

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14984#post14984

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12606#post12606


I'm sure Walter meets every demand you have of a person's worth based on what they have created. Will you argue with these words as well and if so, what excuse to attack me will you use then?

Will

 

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Smoke
Leave the actual bonsai discussion to those that have demonstrated they can do it and I am sure you will be welcomed to any discussion about bonsai when you yourself can show us anything done in the past four years that can be considerd an improvement by all your bonsai itelligence.

How about trying to debate the subject and not me, if you are capable?

Will

Your argument is that bonsai art is produced by an artistic methodoligy. I say it is not. Since you are an authority on the complexities of art and bonsai and it's relations to bonsai, you should then be able to relate those artistic principles to most any material and produce art. My challange is to put up or shutup. Now that is pretty simple. If it is so easy do it. I do not wish to engage on a war of words. I wish to prove my point with substance not conjecture.

Please do not insult my intelligence by copping the whole talent subject. You have told me coutless time I have no talent yet I have many trees that are very good bonsai. It's your call. This is not about you. This is about bonsai plain and simple. Show me by doing not by saying. Your words mean nothing. Do you really want to be known as the guy with the best forum on the net that can't do bonsai?...or do you want to back off a bit and be one of the guys just passing some time on the net with a couple average bonsai in the backyard?

 

[Smoke]

Well then, since you have disqualified yourself and myself, and most other members here, let's leave the words to one of the world's best bonsai artist.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4775&postcount=36

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4782#post4782

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14984#post14984

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12606#post12606


I'm sure Walter meets every demand you have of a person's worth based on what they have created. Will you argue with these words as well and if so, what excuse to attack me will you use then?

Will

I didn't say you couldn't I said your opinion weighed as equally as anyone elses. Don't talk down to me, you have shown you have nothing superior to me when it comes to bonsai. When you are as superior as Walter I will surly entertain that thought. Untill then you ruin more threads than you add to them.

Find me a thread where your later involvment in it did not degrade the thread into a pissing match.

 

[JasonG]

Quingquan Zhao, in his book, "Penjing: Worlds of Wonderment" states the following:


"From its very inception, penjing has been an art of the Chinese Scholar. The literati of traditional China created this special art form for the purpose of self-cultivation, the development of character, and the refinement of aesthetic taste. Penjing shares a philosophical foundation with Chinese landscape gardens, paintings, and poetry. All these art forms have played similar roles in Chinese culture. They have greatly influenced one another, grown into each other, and none of them can be viewed as a separate entity."


It is also common knowledge that the Japanese bonsaists looked to paintings and painting manuals for inspiration, indeed the literati style of bonsai is said to have been developed when artists attempted to create bonsai that looked like the trees featured in literati paintings.

Knowing the history of bonsai and its interrelationship with paintings, is it really invalid to compare the two, especially when discussing artistic principles?


More later.....

I am sure that the people who painted literati trees on canvas or whatever took thier inspiration from nature . They didn't invent literati. So they painted something that they saw in nature and a person with a little tree styled a tree after something he saw on canvas. In the mean while, another tree guy was styling trees based off what he saw in nature.

I am sure that someones painting inspired someone somewhere to make a literati bonsai, but to say that the art of painting is responsible for literati bonsai is a far fetch.

I am with everyone else, I don't see that you can compare a 2d object with a 3d object, let alone one that is a living breathing thing that needs attention daily to maintain it. There isn't a sculpture, or painting, or other artfrom the requires such attention.

As I stated earlier, I think that if you style a good bonsai then art is a by product of a good bonsai. But you don't sit down to style a tree with an art manual or look at a tree and think art. You look at a tree and style a tree based on each tree.

jason

 

[emk]

(Not picking on Jason in particular here, but he's the latest post and his words brought many things to mind. Plus, I only have time to reply to one post at the moment.)

I am sure that the people who painted literati trees on canvas or whatever took thier inspiration from nature . They didn't invent literati. So they painted something that they saw in nature and a person with a little tree styled a tree after something he saw on canvas. In the mean while, another tree guy was styling trees based off what he saw in nature.

I am sure that someones painting inspired someone somewhere to make a literati bonsai, but to say that the art of painting is responsible for literati bonsai is a far fetch.

In summary, all art is derivative. People tend to put too much weight on originality when they talk about art. If originality was the deciding factor, then every inventor would be an artist.

...I don't see that you can compare a 2d object with a 3d object...

It happens all the time. Comparisons can be credibly made, and you can learn a lot by exploring just how far those comparisons are valid and how 2D masterworks can inform our 3D endeavours. ...Or you could just throw out the baby with the bathwater and turn a blind eye (mixed metaphors anyone?) to everything that doesn't fit into your idea of relevance. I don't mean to say that you're not justified in making that kind of decision (we make choices like that every day), I just think it's important to recognize that we are making that decision and that others may not draw the line in the sand at exactly the same spot.

...let alone one that is a living breathing thing that needs attention daily to maintain it. There isn't a sculpture, or painting, or other artfrom the requires such attention.

I've been toying with the idea of introducing the notion that perhaps bonsai is more akin to a performance art than any other kinds of visual art. This would suggest that watching the bonsai master work with the tree over time is the higher realm of aesthetic experience than any single viewing of the tree over the course of its (hopefully) long life. I bring this up not because I have any firm conviction about the notion, it's just food for thought and discussion.

...you don't sit down to style a tree with an art manual or look at a tree and think art. You look at a tree and style a tree based on each tree.

I'm pretty sure artist don't sit down with manuals when they create artwork. ;^) You could just as easily say that any artist considers their subject (often dynamic, living beings) and contemplates how exactly they wish to capture them in their chosen medium. There's a lot we can glean about how to capture the essence of a living thing by studying how this is done in any given artform (from cave paintings to cinema to sculpture to tapestry to opera) if we decided to give them our careful consideration.

 

[Rick Moquin]

It was more entertaining during the summer months less drivel!!