Composing your own pine bark?

aphid

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Does anyone compose your own pine bark?

I have not been able to locate pine bark fines or soil conditioner at Lowe's, Home Depot, or a nursery near me (Boston area). There's plenty of pine mulch though. I could use it around my garden as mulch and sieve it in a year or two? Do I need to do anything to it?

Would be much cheaper than buying sieved pine fines on the internet. Although, $77 for 14 gallons isn't that bad, but it would be much cheaper if I make it myself. :p
 

CasAH

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Look for a nursery that specializes in orchids. There is a place called Hauserman's Orchids near Chicago that also sells it on line.
 

Vance Wood

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Here is what you need to look for. You don't want the chunky bark you need the composted bark. The chunky bark is still decomposing and in doing so it uses up Nitrogen in the soil. Most nurseries don't really know what it is that they are selling.
 

aphid

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How do you compost it yourself?
 

MichaelS

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There are 2 ways. Hot composting with nitrogen and ageing. To age simply make a heap of at least 1 cubic metre, wet well and let it sit for 6 weeks turning now and then. For hot composting, you will need at least 2 and preferably 3 cubic metres. To this you add Urea (about 2.5 kg/cubic metre). Wet well and turn over every three days making sure all the bark spends some time in the centre of the pile where it is hot. Do not allow it to dry out and you don't want it too wet either. It should be ready to use in about 3/4 weeks. You will need to adjust the pH with lime to around 5.5 to 6. You must do it gradually adding a bit at a time and testing it periodically. You will also need to add lime to aged bark.
This is a very simple explanation. Adding Ferrous sulphate (0.5 to 1 kg/M3) helps speed up the detoxifying and adds iron.
 

Adair M

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However, putting bark in a mix, composted or not, is inviting root rot.
 

MichaelS

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However, putting bark in a mix, composted or not, is inviting root rot.
Tell that to the thousands of nurseries around the world whos' stock is worth 1000 times all the bonsai combined and who are using nothing but bark for potting for the last 50 years.
Really Adair, where do you find such ideas? Specifically, I know a conifer nursery with full sized landscape pines of all kinds in huge containers of pure pine bark and they have been in pine bark their whole lives.
 

Adair M

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Tell that to the thousands of nurseries around the world whos' stock is worth 1000 times all the bonsai combined and who are using nothing but bark for potting for the last 50 years.
Really Adair, where do you find such ideas? Specifically, I know a conifer nursery with full sized landscape pines of all kinds in huge containers of pure pine bark and they have been in pine bark their whole lives.
Yes, nurserymen like pine bark because it's cheap, and holds water. Which means they are less likely to have inventory loss because of plants drying out.

But does that make it the optimal soil? Hardly.

Look at the average landscape nursery container. What's its shape and size? As compared to a bonsai container?

What is goal of the landscape nurseryman? To get the biggest, tallest tree in the least amount of time. Are they conserned about long internodes? No. Do they care about a radial nebari? Their answer would be: "a radial what???"

Their goals are not the same as our goals as bonsai keepers. Their methods are different. Whereas we keep trees in the same pot for years, the landscape nurseryman "up pots" as the tree gets bigger. He simply pull the old pot off, sticks the rootball into a bigger pot and backfills with more soil. How many times have you had to dig down into a nursery pot to "find the nebari"?

Think of this analogy: which tastes better, a homegrown tomato? Or a "store bought" one? The "store bought" tomatos are produced by the millions, as cheaply as possible, to be of a sufficient quality that you'll buy them. A homegrown tomato is produced in far smaller quantities, are allowed to be grown and ripened on the vine, have no need to be shipped, each bush is carefully tended by its owner, etc. So the homegrown are better tomatoes. But the amount of care a howngrown tomato bush gets just isn't possible when they're produced on the commercial scale of millions of tomatoes.

Same with bonsai.

Organic material in a bonsai pot has the potential to develop root rot. Inorganic soil much less so.
 

Vance Wood

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However, putting bark in a mix, composted or not, is inviting root rot.
I know that's what you believe and what you teach but I have been using Pine bark in a soil mix for more than 50 years. If you have the correct percentage of grit and nothing else breaks down the bark is not an issue in my opinion. However if you mix products that decompose and break down like some of the clay substitutes and mix it with Pine bark you could have a problem.
 

Anthony

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Sifu,

almost 40 years of blending inorganic and organic [ aged compost ]
No root rot.

Of course you may cancel out my opinion because we don't grow Japanese styled efforts.

But we have never had root rot on our mix.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Waltron

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Adair and Vance are examples of conflicting opinion/practice which I feel relates to zone somewhat. I've seen bonsai nursery guys(youtube videos) growing black pine in the south flat out mention before that they are jealous of Michigan growers becasue of our ability to use bark in the mix, that is something to think about. At the same time, Zach Smith of bonsai south uses 50/50 turface bark. Obviously Adair does the Japanese way, even though its new school, and americanized. Which is great, I have a good grasp on Adairs soil mix, Adair has money, and Adair has very valuable trees, id go on to say his mix is generally ideal. @Vance Wood since you are in Michigan, I'm very curious to know more about your mix. Not trying to argue with you at all, not starting a soil debate at all, just looking for an answer to a question. I'm just curious if you would lay out your basic soil mix, maybe you have one for pine and one for deciduous. I know you use pool filter # 3 sand, grit, and now I know you use bark. I assume you use turface. I am a student of soil mixtures, and have been discussing them at length with a local guy Jack Wickle, he is the curator of not one, but two priceless bonsai collections here in southern Michigan, and has also won blue ribbon awards at several bonsai shows judged by some of the most famous bonsai artists in the world. he is also known as the only person who keep's quality juniper bonsai completely indoors grown under lights, Vance im sure you know him, your mix sounds similar. I'm just curious to know, for personal reasons, what exactly is the Vance Wood soil mixture?
 

Vance Wood

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My mix if made up of basically three significant elements. Composted Pine Bark Mulch,-------Coarse Sand prefferably #3 swimming Pool Sand or #2 Swimming Pool Filter. You can also use Sand Blasting Sand in the same grit. I am currently having diffiuculty finding this stuff due to the fact most Pool Filter manufacturers are now only using #1 Mistic White filter sand. It is about the consistency of play sand and is too fine for my taste. The one company around here that carried the Sand blasting Sand has gone out of business so as now I am looking for alternate sources. Element #3. This is really the core of the soil mix. It can be made of any number of Calcined Clay productes like Turface, Pumice (I know it ain't clay but it works the same) Red Lava stone, the little stuff can be used seperately of in concert with the other #3 elements All of these are mixed in equal parts Sand,, Bark and Element #3. I have also found if you know how to water and are careful about making sure the soil does not get compacted you can grow a tree in dog poop.
 

Adair M

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I know that's what you believe and what you teach but I have been using Pine bark in a soil mix for more than 50 years. If you have the correct percentage of grit and nothing else breaks down the bark is not an issue in my opinion. However if you mix products that decompose and break down like some of the clay substitutes and mix it with Pine bark you could have a problem.
Well, I base a lot of my opinion upon what I've experienced teaching repotting classes. For about 5 years now, I've been teaching repotting classes, and people bring in their own trees for the workshop. Many of these trees had never been repotted since they purchased them. Many of them were at one time trees originating from Brussel's. Some domestic, some imported. Many were in Brussel's pots.

Brussels uses composted pine bark, sand, and peat on their "ordinary" trees. Maybe some pumice is added to the more expensive ones. Azaleas, thank goodness, are now potted in Kanuma.

But, I have found more root rot and dead roots in Brussel's soil than any other Mix. (Potting soil, excluded).

Whenever I encounter a tree originating from Brussel's my first advice is to get it in better soil.

I have also purchased two trees from Julian Adams, that were grown in 100% Turface. What I have found is the roots in both of them were a thick pad on the bottom, but nothing really in the body of the soil. It's like the roots are running to the sides of the pot, hit the walls, and then spread across the bottom. Rather than populating the Turface. Dav4 has mentioned that when he repotted his Rocky Mountain Juniper that he used to have in mostly Turface, when he lifted the tree, he would have long roots, but not a firm root ball. All the Turface would fall away. That's because the roots aren't growing into it.

Pine bark and Turface are shaped poorly. They're both rather flat. So over time, the soil mix compacts. Think of a jar full of pennies. The pennies lay flat. There little air space in the jar. Now think of a jar of marbles. Marbles being round, they leave a lot of are space between themselves.

Air is crucial for a healthy root system. When we water, the column of water flows down through the open spaces between soil particles. As it descends and drains out the bottom, air is pulled down from to surface to take its place. If the space between particles is tight, little fresh air is brought in. Compacted soil without fresh are turns toxic because anaerobic bacteria and molds start to grow. These don't need oxygen. These cause the root rot. They will only grow where there is a lack of oxygen.

So...

Many people use organic s in their soil mix because they think the tree needs the "nutrition" provided by the organic. Not so. We can deliver the nutrition the tree needs with fertilizer.

Think about this: what is one of the most lush vegetation places on Earth? Hawaii, right? Hawaii is all volcanic. When the first seeds arrived there, there was no organic soil. Only lava and pumice. Obviously, plants grew. Without organic soil. Without fertilizer, even!
 

Dav4

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composted?? I have been using regular pine bark since last year as I thought that was what being implied.
Darn!!
The "issue" with straight pine bark is that it will supposedly leach nitrogen from the soil at the expense of the potted tree. The fact is that we fertilize so often that nitrogen availability won't ever be an issue, even when using uncomposted components.
 

barrosinc

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I never noticed any difference, and actually my azaleas are liking it, no black tips whatsoever!
 

Adair M

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Azalea like an acid soil, and pine bark is acid.

Just make sure it doesn't turn rancid.
 

ralf

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Plain inorganic substrate = more water&more fertiliser.

Despite the small scale - this is not my way to do bonsai
 
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