Composting for Bonsai? (Latest Podcast, Modern Soil Science - Mirai)

[Anthony]

Guys - before the fight

Miracle Gro lawn fertiliser - 36N 0P 6 K
at 1/3 strength -------- 12 N- 0 P -2 K20 [ less K when converting to just K ]

Our compost has a small % of P

Testing 1/4 strength 9 N ....... closer to oil seedmeal.

Our sunlight is pretty intense and the present growth is slow and even on all
plants down here.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Forsoothe!]

Interestingly, from my research, those who use inorganics for specific NPK might be doing so to the detriment of their microbes.

To which I said: The trick, if we want to use technical terms, is to use everything in moderation.

I don't see how what I've quoted in this post above has anything to do with my comment that you booed and hissed at.

In moderation means just that: Over-feeding has nothing to do with organic or inorganic sources. It is dependent upon how much is applied verses how much is needed. I highlighted your "might" to acknowledge that you are not making a blanket statement except that users of organics use materials that you believe last too long and are too strong for the micro population. Not so. I don't feed trees, I feed the soil population and they feed the trees. (see previous post #42)

 

[Anthony]

Check if there is a special need for P and K for Winter.

 

[bwaynef]

To which I said: The trick, if we want to use technical terms, is to use everything in moderation.

In moderation means just that: Over-feeding has nothing to do with organic or inorganic sources. It is dependent upon how much is applied verses how much is needed. I highlighted your "might" to acknowledge that you are not making a blanket statement except that users of organics use materials that you believe last too long and are too strong for the micro population.

My statement regarding materials that I believe to remain in the soils (because it has scientifically been proven) for a long time was in regard to inorganics.

Not so. I don't feed trees, I feed the soil population and they feed the trees. (see previous post #42)

This is what started this whole sub-thread. My contention is that if you feed inorganics, the likelihood is that you're doing so to the detriment of the microbes that you're wanting to feed your trees.[/quote]

 

[Anthony]

So you can create compost.
Okay, how does it decay/age ?

 

[Forsoothe!]

My contention is that if you feed inorganics, the likelihood is that you're doing so to the detriment of the microbes that you're wanting to feed your trees.

[/QUOTE]
We are going in circles. I don't understand.

 

[fredman]

I truelly don't see any need to use both inorganic and organic fertilizer (if one is going for a organic regime that is). Its the one or the other. The system is either organic or inorganic. In the podcast Ian said when additional inorganics are added, you run the risk of feeding unwanted pathogens and disrupting the eco system looking to be created. When a well balanced bio system is created in the pot, there's no need to add ANY fertilizer. Only supplifeed the organisms sparingly now and again through natural means.
He spoke about Dr Elaine Ingam...I follow her teachings wherever I see something. Look for her on utube.
She actually has a online course where one can learn all about the wanted/unwanted microbes in the soil bio mass. She teaches how to identify them though a microscope...taking your own soil samples and inoculating your own bonsai mix.
Now THAT to me is next level bonsai cultivation. Pouring chemical concoctions on sterile pumice is soooo old school....

 

[Forsoothe!]

Pouring chemical concoctions on plants is why 5% of the population can feed world. It's not an either/or world of plants, it's an all of the above world. Using the best methods and components in hort is just like the rest of civilization: progress step, by step, by step to a better outcome. Are you looking back fondly on pocket watches that weighed as much as an Ipad? Or horse & buggies and manure in the streets, black & white TV, ice boxes, New York to London in 7 to 14 days, polio, heating your house with a pot-bellied stove? The world is a better place today than it was back in the good 'o days. And getting better.

 

[fredman]

Nope the world is getting worse and worse the more it moves away from the natural to the sinthetical. Especially with the food we eat. There is little to zero nourishment in it anymore. It fills us but at the same time don't give us what we need to fight illnesses.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The lifespan of a white male was 46 in 1900. Now it's 76. The stats are all lined up against you.

 

[Adair M]

You know all of this is going to need visual proof.

AND as always, cultivars are what make the difference.

So Sifu [ Adair ] was showing his zelkova at 12 inches.
I just looked through a Bonsai Today 51 -page 14
So dense that it can at times block the dark background.

Down here we have 5 different types of Chlorophora t.
Only one can become similiar to a zelkova.
Now looking for a branch sport.

What matters is how healthy you can keep a cultivar.
Even if you are growing it in styro balls and plastic beads
and can Design.
Good Day
Anthony

Bnut please forgive -
BT 51
pg.14
zelkova serrata 9 onches [ 23 cm ]

View attachment 231725

I just reported mine today, Anthony. It looks a lot like the one you found in the magazine.



Mine is not as dense as the one you posted. I’m showing it this weekend. And I’ll cut it back after the show. That should help make it denser by forcing more backbudding!

Cheers!

 

[Gary McCarthy]

I just reported mine today, Anthony. It looks a lot like the one you found in the magazine.

View attachment 231948

Mine is not as dense as the one you posted. I’m showing it this weekend. And I’ll cut it back after the show. That should help make it denser by forcing more backbudding!

Cheers!

WOW...............that's NICE!!!

 

[fredman]

The lifespan of a white male was 46 in 1900. Now it's 76. The stats are all lined up against you.

Vaccines...
Maybe in the next few "enlightened" years they'll have vaccines for the malnutritional related illnesses to. Hell, maybe one for the generation of kids in a zombie like state....following their cellphones.

I'm out

 

[Forsoothe!]

Vaccines...
Maybe in the next few "enlightened" years they'll have vaccines for the malnutritional related illnesses to. Hell, maybe one for the generation of kids in a zombie like state....following their cellphones.
View attachment 231957
I'm out

No, don't withdraw from this argument, there are lots of common interests between us that the world needs and wants us to solve! We are men of good will and just because we disagree, we don't have to consider the other's jabs as real rapiers.

Let's argue about the food that is. We certainly do have a problem in that since the advent of HFCS - High Fructose Corn Syrup, the obesity problem of modern society has exploded. In a nutshell, granular white sugars is sucrose, it is processed by the liver into 50% dextrose to be used by the body for energy, the other 50% is glucose that is not used by the body for energy. 100% of Fructose cannot be processed by the liver into dextrose. At the end of the day, all carbs surplus to the energy used by the body is stored by the body as fat on the body. Use it, or store it. We like to think that we leave it in scat, but it doesn't work that way. The body processes most and uses it to fuel activity and what's left over goes into the tanks for the future. Lots of people carry several month's of fuel.

HFCS was introduced in the early '70s. It is a cost-effective replacement for granular sugars and processes as well or better in manufacturing, so it's in everything, everywhere. Tastes great, processes well, cheap, 100% of its calories stored in the body as fat. Need I say more?

The old adage of, "Don't eat white food" is still true, especially now that HFCS has succeeded sucrose sugars in the pantheon of high carb white rice, processed flour, and white potato. Sound the alarm, @fredman

 

[Anthony]

So no one checked to see how the compost ages.

Here's a little side note.
Using the oil seed cake,
noted - grows slime if you use alkaline water.
Rain soon returns it to true compost and it waters in,
Surface returns to that pretty stoney look.

Learnt from Sifu [ Adair ] how to manipulate the soil
for the mature tree.
Good Day
Anthony

* Down here we use nothing with High Fructose Corn
Syrup - bad stuff and avoid the hidden less than 1%
ingredients that are not legally needed to be printed
on the label, but can be carcinogenic.

 

[fredman]

No, don't withdraw from this argument, there are lots of common interests between us that the world needs and wants us to solve! We are men of good will and just because we disagree, we don't have to consider the other's jabs as real rapiers.

You're right. My apologies. This had the makings of an argument, and i'm over those. Guess my frustrations got the better of me....

 

[Forsoothe!]

You're right. My apologies. This had the makings of an argument, and i'm over those. Guess my frustrations got the better of me....

We all have personality imperfections that make us really touchy with a jab that sounds personal at just the wrong time. Some of us, anyway. Well, I mean some of you guys...

 

[fredman]

Back to business then
I just picked up this video.

This is what I have in my vegetable garden and I now want it in my bonsai pots as well.
For the first time ever I didn't work my vegetable garden soil. I only topped it with my homemade compost and a layer of wood chips ontop of that. Then planted in the compost. I think I watered 4 times the whole summer (and we had a scorcher) and only "fertilized" twice with a good hydrolised fish emulsion. That's to feed the organisms...not the plants (i did not use a drop of organic fertilizer).
Even though the food web life in the soil is still young, I had the best plants I ever had. They grew lush like i've not had before. The chips on the top was mostly bonedry during summer, but the compost and soil beneath that stayed cool and moist.
Imagine having a life supporting web inside a bonsai pot. Much less watering and almost no fertilizers....

 

[Forsoothe!]

Back to business then
I just picked up this video.

This is what I have in my vegetable garden and I now want it in my bonsai pots as well.
For the first time ever I didn't work my vegetable garden soil. I only topped it with my homemade compost and a layer of wood chips ontop of that. Then planted in the compost. I think I watered 4 times the whole summer (and we had a scorcher) and only "fertilized" twice with a good hydrolised fish emulsion. That's to feed the organisms...not the plants (i did not use a drop of organic fertilizer).
Even though the food web life in the soil is still young, I had the best plants I ever had. They grew lush like i've not had before. The chips on the top was mostly bonedry during summer, but the compost and soil beneath that stayed cool and moist.
Imagine having a life supporting web inside a bonsai pot. Much less watering and almost no fertilizers....

Right on the money. A healthy environment for plants grows them the biggest, quickest.

 

[fredman]

There's been some talk about compost tea on this thread. For the most part compost teas are misunderstood and misused. It is NOT a fertilizer. Its purpose is to inoculate soils with beneficial microbes where needed. The tea also has to be done right for it to be effective. Firstly the compost has to be done right so you know if you have the right microbes for where its needed. These microbes are very fragile creatures and die off easy. Your process should be under control, or you end up with only lifeless dirty water.
Perrenials and trees in general needs a fungally dominated food web, therefore a fungally dominated compost tea should be used. Annuals on the other hand thrive under a bacterially dominated food web so they need a compost loaded with the right bacterial microbes.
Compost teas should only really be used after a soil test showed a lack of certain microbes.
We're talking bacteria, fungi, nematodes, protozoa, athropods etc etc...not NPK, majors or minors when talking compost teas.