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Vance Wood

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Morning Tom: Thank you for your carefully thought out response to what turned out to be a tomb of a remark on my part. I am flattered that you and Ashbarns took the time to read the whole thing and in doing so did not find it necessary to shoot the messenger. I know what I have written here is controversial on many levels and there are some that would and have, argued that it is off topic. I happen to think it is a critical issue.

I have had discussions with some "Old Timers" that make the assertion that very few old and experienced bonsai growers don't go on the Internet. That may be true, but I have followed that argument with my own observation that probably a majority of the newer bonsai growers, especially the just getting started crowd do. It is in their sort of cultural back-ground to utilize the Internet to find information before they do anything else. Because of this I think it is important to avoid sending mixed messages where on one hand they are told to get good material and on the other that this material is too advanced for them; and all out of the same mouth. It become increasingly difficult for these individuals to come up with suitable trees in light of this. According to prior discussions the good trees are too good for them and the other sources of material are all inferior. Where are they supposed to go? It's like trying to find a good job when just starting out where the job requirement says prior experience necessary.
 
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This is my last post on the subject.

Except maybe this one.

…in light of this post whose business is it anyway? If the person in question has not listened to sound advise, assuming he has been getting it, for all these years what makes anyone think he is going to listen now when he is told his new tree is too advanced for him? Especially in view of the fact he has probably been deluged with a barrage of arguments as to why he should use better material?


Vance, I agree with you completely that it’s no one’s business but the owner of the tree. I was just inappropriately venting some frustration with the whole situation. And no, no one has been deluged with anything.

There is a difference between encouraging people to use better material and what you claim for me. I have always held that people should use the best material that they can afford and properly care for either themselves or with the help of others. Any Controversial Points so far?

There seems to be an underlying thread of elitism in this entire concept where some seem to think it is their lot in life to tell other bonsai growers what kind of material they should be using. Giving advise and passing judgements are two different things. It has now gone from one end of the spectrum where people are criticized for using material that is too young, too small, too skinny, and too cheap. We are told that if you want to get some where you should be using decent material, preferably purchased from a reputable source at as high a price as possible, but for God's sake never ever use nursery material and so on down the road, to the other end of the spectrum where finally and now we come to the grand finale of double mindedness: That material is too advanced for you.


Vance, this position bears no resemblance to anything I have ever posted. It is your feelings about what I try to say. Do you alter my positions on purpose or are we missing the communication that far? This is the logical fallacy of the straw man. It has no place in this discussion or any other.
From this comes my original question: What would be good material for this individual? It is in that tar pit of snares and pit falls all of the previous pontifications find their final resting place. Unless of course we make the jump to,--- this person should not be doing bonsai at all. I say this because it is quite obvious that good trees are too good for this person. So it is safe to assume that somewhere in that list of quasi-forbidden material there is a choice for this poor soul. Then we can all be comfortable pounding him down again for using crappy material.

Vance, once again you jump into my Jello without knowing what flavor it is. Quote any pontifications from past threads. Seriously. I’d like to read them. Did I say good trees are too good for this person? Can you quote that for me? I only pound you down for using crappy materials because you obviously could make better trees with better material. You have the experience and talent.

My point here was what I have always believed and what others practice…go as good as you can handle. There are vendors that will not sell a tree, collected or otherwise, if they believe the purchaser cannot or will not be able to keep it alive.

A great tree, or previously great tree, requires a certain amount of respect and humility when it is given to one’s caretaking. Before talking about cutting off a major branch, or restyling the tree, one should be sure one can care for it. Would this tree be better off in the hands of a rich collector who hires a competent professional to care for it? Undoubtedly. Would it be better off in the hands of an advanced enthusiast? Probably. Would it be fine for a beginner if they would seek competent help? Absolutely.
 
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Another thing that bothers me is this concept of 30 years as a beginner that seems to be a favorite mantra of a few who post around here. If you read the early part of this post you will see that mention is made of years of experience summed up as--- many years as a beginner for this person, who has obtained this wonderful tree. I am beginning to think that there are very specific things that must take place before you are allowed into the "No longer a beginner" club that have nothing to do with years of experience.

Tachigi said:
I personally think that if you can't display certain skills or techniques no matter what length of tenure you have in bonsai. You will have the stigma of being a beginner. I think you could be politically correct and say that the person is an advanced beginner or a beginner with a lot of years under his belt. We are all tested in one thing or another in life. Being humans we label and categorize in order to make sense of things. If a person can't or doesn't have the knowledge to demonstrate basic skills required to advance a tree (no matter what its origin or cost). They will always be doomed with that label from their peers. I cite a recent example on one of the other forums. A person I know with a fair amount of years under his belt asked if he could do a shari on a tree and remove "all" the bark. I ask you, is that a question that anything else but a beginner would ask. Wonder where this person was in biology class ;)

Tom, thank you for so eloquently answering this question. Of course is a certain modicum of knowledge and skill that would point up the difference between a rank beginner and a senior master. Now, lest the straw man of “governing bodies” and “more elitism” rear its ugly head, I will say that I have no desire to go about judging whether someone is ready to advance to intermediate material or good material or great material or world-class material or famous cultural-heritage material. I wouldn’t want anyone to set themselves up in that position.

In fact, I wouldn’t want someone to be the arbiter of who has talent and why. Or who is an artist and why. Or who does not have talent or is not and artist. We have our opinions. They are what they are.

Will this person ever be ready to take on advanced material? Well I don't know and I seriously doubt that many of us know either but there is one thing for sure he will never be ready if he does not acquire some advanced material or develop what he has into advanced material, which is by the way another concept poo-pooed as a waste of time by the pre-bonsai police.

Sure, acquire advanced materials. But what if that person is a member of the VWASANF club? What if their current trees of that variety show a decided lack of knowledge about the species and they jump immediately to far superior material? What will they learn if they consider themselves competent without help?


I know that this is not the intention but it is the outcome none-the-less, we criticize those who are not advancing for using less than optimum material by beating them down for doing so. But when one of them goes out and buys some good material we beat them down again because in our convoluted logic we don't think this person is worthy of such a wonderful tree. The end result is the beginner will remain a beginner not because he does not try but because some of us wont allow him to progress. No matter what choice he makes it will be wrong in some eyes, with the right credentials, and this too is wrong, and slightly immoral.

Sometimes it sounds like a cult around here.

Vance, again you say you understand my intention but then go on to say “some of us won’t allow him to progress.” You can’t possibly believe that to be the case.

I know you think I am elitist. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wish everyone had trees of this quality and the knowledge and skills to make them better year by year. I don't believe he is unworthy of the tree. I believe he will take the tree to the brink of dying and then the gods help whoever has to try to save it. I just want him to get the help he needs to learn to properly care for the tree. But knowing him I know he won't.

 
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Vance Wood

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Chris: You make the assumption that everything I have said is totally about you, and it is not. The things I have quoted come from a variety of sources that you have at times aligned yourself with. I have tried to leave out personal references and instead focused on general trends amassed from a group of sources on the forums I frequent. This information is out there to be read by anyone who wants to go looking, giving it a life of its own divorced from the person or persons who have written it. The forums, for better or worse, have taken on the identity of an electronic bonsai book. Most people don't care, or even consider at this point, who wrote or said what, it is the fact that it was said at all that it is important.
 

Vance Wood

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Vance, again you say you understand my intention but then go on to say “some of us won’t allow him to progress.” You can’t possibly believe that to be the case.



This is not purposeful or the actions of a conspiracy, but the results are the same. Words have meaning. When parameters are set, as in assuming a tree to be too advanced for a particular person, it is in my view incumbent that alternatives be given where by someone can determine if they are ready for advanced material, or, what hoops they have to jump through with what kind of material to get there. The beginner or novice is left with knowing if they pick less than good material needing years of care and cultivation they will hear that they need to find better material. If they go out and purchase something really impressive they are told that this tree is beyond their experience.

No one seems to be willing or able to define this middle ground which, I might add is where most of the people reading these forums happen to occupy. This is where we reached the hurdle no one wanted to try to jump the last time we had a similar discussion. It becomes doubly difficult when one realizes that all of the other sources of material have been pilloried many times in this and other forums.

So what does the beginner or novice do? He/she keeps doing what he/she has been doing and goes no where because he/she knows not where to go or how to get there. The message being sent on the one had is that their material is not good enough, while on the other hand---they are being told they are not good enough for their material. The end result, they are beaten down by the double mindedness of this and other forums.

It's kind of like urinating in a stream. No one intentionally sets out to polute the water but it gets poluted anyway.
 
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To sum up my personal feelings on this subject....


When and only when someone is buying or collecting my stock for me can they tell me what to keep in my backyard. If the stock is below me, I'll realize it eventually, if it is above me, I''ll realize it eventually, that is called learning.

On the subject of teachers, just because a person is studying under a great artist does not mean they are great themselves. It does not automatically impart magical talent on the student. It does not mean they have the talent or skills, or even vision of their teacher, they may, they may never will. The only thing to judge the student on is the work they produce, not on the work their teacher produces. If they have nothing to show, then all they have is a great teacher.

Teacher or not, a person should be free to acquire and work on stock that they personally see something in, be it nursery stock or collected stock, or stock that somebody else has already laid the blueprint for, or a combination of all. Telling somebody that the stock they have is beneath them, above them, or whatever is pointless and would be akin to telling someone using watercolors to paint with that they should be using oils.





Will
 
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This is not purposeful or the actions of a conspiracy, but the results are the same. Words have meaning. When parameters are set, as in assuming a tree to be too advanced for a particular person, it is in my view incumbent that alternatives be given where by someone can determine if they are ready for advanced material, or, what hoops they have to jump through with what kind of material to get there. The beginner or novice is left with knowing if they pick less than good material needing years of care and cultivation they will hear that they need to find better material. If they go out and purchase something really impressive they are told that this tree is beyond their experience.

No one seems to be willing or able to define this middle ground which, I might add is where most of the people reading these forums happen to occupy. This is where we reached the hurdle no one wanted to try to jump the last time we had a similar discussion. It becomes doubly difficult when one realizes that all of the other sources of material have been pilloried many times in this and other forums.

So what does the beginner or novice do? He/she keeps doing what he/she has been doing and goes no where because he/she knows not where to go or how to get there. The message being sent on the one had is that their material is not good enough, while on the other hand---they are being told they are not good enough for their material. The end result, they are beaten down by the double mindedness of this and other forums.

It's kind of like urinating in a stream. No one intentionally sets out to polute the water but it gets poluted anyway.

You refer to others' arguments in far more exaggerated terms than any of them actually made. Once agyou are beating a straw man. I have never heard anyone anywhere pillory any source of material. But that's what you hear when someone suggests only using one source is limitin one's self. That's why we get to the hurdle we do. You stop listening.

Once more, with feeling...oh, what the hell.
 
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Smoke

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There are many going on four and five years or more with forums in general. Many have over 7 to 10 years. I suggest taking out some of those 5 year old trees and restyle them. If they can't be improved, maybe you have not made the best of the last five years in your learning curve...

Thats of course if they are still alive...;)
 
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If you want to try to prove a point, you are going to have to actually show the quote. I am not going to dig through all those quotes for you.

And Vance, if you want to respond to my thread, respond to me. I am not responsible for anyone else's point of view. Or start your own thread about how it's a waste of time to use anything but $5 mughos. Because if I take your arguments the way you take others, I must believe that's what you are saying.
 
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If you want to try to prove a point, you are going to have to actually show the quote. I am not going to dig through all those quotes for you.

And Vance, if you want to respond to my thread, respond to me. I am not responsible for anyone else's point of view. Or start your own thread about how it's a waste of time to use anything but $5 mughos. Because if I take your arguments the way you take others, I must believe that's what you are saying.

Actually Chris, the first link goes directlyto your quote, nothing to sort through. Might I sugessted actually clicking on the link before condemning it?

I'm not Vance but I'll repeat the point I have made on numerous occasions.... It is not the price that matters, it is not where you buy that matters, all that matters is the quality of the material.

If one wishes to spend thousands on a piece of pre-made, paint by numbers material, by all means do it, just don't say that is the only way....it is not.



Will
 

AndyWilson

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To sum up my personal feelings on this subject....

When and only when someone is buying or collecting my stock for me can they tell me what to keep in my backyard. If the stock is below me, I'll realize it eventually, if it is above me, I''ll realize it eventually, that is called learning.

On the subject of teachers, just because a person is studying under a great artist does not mean they are great themselves. It does not automatically impart magical talent on the student. It does not mean they have the talent or skills, or even vision of their teacher, they may, they may never will. The only thing to judge the student on is the work they produce, not on the work their teacher produces. If they have nothing to show, then all they have is a great teacher.

Teacher or not, a person should be free to acquire and work on stock that they personally see something in, be it nursery stock or collected stock, or stock that somebody else has already laid the blueprint for, or a combination of all. Telling somebody that the stock they have is beneath them, above them, or whatever is pointless and would be akin to telling someone using watercolors to paint with that they should be using oils.

Will

I agree Will. When i first found my teacher she put up with me and some of my awful stock/collections, she taught me the basics of how to keep the trees alive and how to care for the species specifically. When i had learned a bit she helped me select better stock and explained why it was better, often it was more expensive, sometimes it was free:D . Now if i bring anything sudstandard she will tell me in the bluntest terms why it is rubbish, as she has taught me by now to realise the difference in quality stock and will not put up with me selecting rubbish or wasting time on it.

The lightbulb went off in my head only very recently. All bar one of my collection i have realsied was complete crappola and is now in the ground. But i really appreciate the lessons learnt even off inferior stock. Air layering, grafting and root grafting was all learnt on cheaper stock. Now i will do any of these with confidence on some of my better stock.

Kinda lost where i was going with this one but, i will only select better stock now, better is not always expensive, just something that speaks to me or feels right. its about quality, not price;)
 
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Andy,

Every year I put more stuff in the ground...this is a good thing, it means I am changing, my tastes are changing, my sense of what can be accomplished is changing. I am always happy to make these decisions, happier because it is I who is making them and not someone else....because in the end, it is only myself I have to answer to.

I'm learning. ;)



Will
 
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Actually Chris, the first link goes directlyto your quote, nothing to sort through. Might I sugessted actually clicking on the link before condemning it?

I'm not Vance but I'll repeat the point I have made on numerous occasions.... It is not the price that matters, it is not where you buy that matters, all that matters is the quality of the material.

If one wishes to spend thousands on a piece of pre-made, paint by numbers material, by all means do it, just don't say that is the only way....it is not.



Will

Why do you thrive on controversy so much? Anyone who ever quotes you in response to something you have said gets flamed. Why don't you tell us what was so excessive about what I wrote. I actually did click the links to see what you were putting up there. I know you aren't stupid. Don't act like you think I am.
 
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I'm not Vance but I'll repeat the point I have made on numerous occasions.... It is not the price that matters, it is not where you buy that matters, all that matters is the quality of the material.

Will, if you can find one time I have ever said anything other than what you say above, I will eat those words. Why do you insist on restating the obvious as if I had denied it?


If one wishes to spend thousands on a piece of pre-made, paint by numbers material, by all means do it, just don't say that is the only way....it is not.Will

If you think all prebonsai is "paint-by-numbers" material, then I feel sorry for you. I think you know better.
 
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Why do you thrive on controversy so much? Anyone who ever quotes you in response to something you have said gets flamed. Why don't you tell us what was so excessive about what I wrote. I actually did click the links to see what you were putting up there. I know you aren't stupid. Don't act like you think I am.

Chris, you stated that you were not going to search through all the thread for a quote, I suggested actually clicking on the link which went to a single post by you and not as you suggested to a whole thread. Nothing to get upset about.


Will
 
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Will, if you can find one time I have ever said anything other than what you say above, I will eat those words. Why do you insist on restating the obvious as if I had denied it?


I'm sorry did I say you said anything else? I repeated my feelings as clearly stated, not yours. Although your statement "Or start your own thread about how it's a waste of time to use anything but $5 mughos." does seem to insinuate that VAnce supports using only $5.00 mughos, another untruth.


Not confused,

Will
 
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I'm sorry did I say you said anything else? I repeated my feelings as clearly stated, not yours. Although your statement "Or start your own thread about how it's a waste of time to use anything but $5 mughos." does seem to insinuate that VAnce supports using only $5.00 mughos, another untruth.
Not confused,

Will

And if you ever quoted anyone in context with their plainly stated intent in mind, you might never get to post so much. Here's my caveat on that phrasing,

"if I take your arguments the way you take others, I must believe that's what you are saying."
 
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